Linda now says 'e-cigs are not medicines...'

[JosefK]

... but I wouldn't trust her as far as I can spit. And I tend to drool and dribble a lot in my dotage...

I think medsregs are still lurking...

http://josefk1925.wordpress.com/2013/12/21/a-brief-functional-point/

Whaddyareckon?

 

[Fleabag]

Well, what Linda says and what the MHRA say don't seem to be directly linked (and I hope Britain's entire ecig policy isn't based on the opinions of one ignorant individual) - and Linda has clearly demonstrated that she wants effective ecigs off the market by any means.

The issue of health function is complex - we know there IS a health function, and we know it does prevent disease - but then so does switching from chips to salad, and no-one threatens to reclassify lettuce as a medicine and only allow one flavourless brand of it through the licensing process.

Other manufactured products have/claim to have (or are perceived to have) a health function, but escape the medical licensing trap, and these often do make a direct claim to cure illness or relieve symptoms (I assume Albas Oil, Vapour Rub, Bach Flower Remedies aren't licensed as medicines). Do vitamins have to be medically licensed?

We make lots of choices in life that we feel will improve our health or avoid disease, and lots of those choices are directly marketed to us as effective in doing so, but they're not medically licensed.

 

[JosefK]

I think herbal remedies have been well and truly shafted already... and are now under the remit of the MHRA (link).

I've always seen the health benefits' of e-cigs as a pure side-effect of them being an effective alternative to smoking. There are no real 'health benefits' that stem directly from e-cigs, simply those that come from avoiding cigs... much like going cold turkey. As such, to my fevered imaginings, they cannot ever be a medicine.

The ANTZ, ASH et al, MHRA and politicians (even those that are supportive of vapers) simply cannot grasp this though... and insist that they are either NRT (replacement???), or some form of 'smoking cessation' product. Just because something is an effective substitute for something else doesnae make it a medicine.

E-cigs could be effectively marshalled as part of 'smoking cessation' campaigns if the devices themselves are not sanitised via a pisspoor regulatory straightjacket... which both medsregs and art18 are... but the problem is that politicians and decision-makers (etc) cannot swing their brains around and dump any association with cigs and truly understand what an e-cig is. Merely an alternative to something else.

No idea why I'm scribbling this. It's not as though no PotV denizen is unaware...

 

[Fleabag]

No idea why I'm scribbling this. It's not as though no PotV denizen is unaware...

I know we're preaching to converted, but it gives us a forum to vent frustrations (rather than our poor non-vaping families getting the soapbox treatment all the time) and it helps us formulate our arguments and iron out the queries and gaps in our knowledge.

The only positive thing to come from this for me is that I now have a degree of understanding of how the EU works (or doesn't) - and all of this has come directly or indirectly from this forum.

It has also helped me to make an informed decision on how I will vote in the next MEP elections, rather than selecting purely on instinct and home politics (though I have to say - it doesn't necessarily change the way I vote, but it does make me much clearer about my reasons)

 

[zigackly]

Like many politicians, Linda is probably much more interested in getting and holding onto power than sticking to her beliefs. I think she thought she could get some political traction by getting med regs into the TPD, then when parliament voted against, the next victory for her would be to defend parliament's position against the council. I said as much shortly after the TPD vote.

If you assume that all political parties and about 99% of politicians exist purely for self-interested purposes, you won't go far wrong in understanding politics.

The only reason we won in the parliamentary vote was because we scared enough of them into thinking it was going to affect voting in the next elections. That's why we can't let up on scaring MPs now.

 

[anthonyb]

"That's why we can't let up on scaring MPs now"

The way I see it, is that it may well already be to late for some MPs. And others may need to stock up on toilet paper.
When voting time does arrive, and take into account the low turn out in recent elections. While your only looking at about 1.5 million vapers/voters in the UK at present. Which would only make a small difference to individual wards, due to the geographical spread. You have to also take into account "our poor non-vaping families". Many of whom are also voters. (4 in my household). Add to that the potential vapers/voters and their non-vaping families, by the time the elections arrive. Add a few disgruntled non-smokers, because all the vapers are smoking again, thanks to the people in power.
Once you have done the sums, taking into account that some will not vote, for whatever reason. You should be somewhere near the right amount of voters to put into power, whoever you wish.
Which is probably one of the reasons, they are trying to gag places like this. And other media.

- - - Updated - - -

"That's why we can't let up on scaring MPs now"

 

[zigackly]

Which is probably one of the reasons, they are trying to gag places like this. And other media.

What am I missing here? No-one is going to gag places like this. They would be gagging Edward Snowden's stuff in the Guardian long before they got around to us!

 

[Fleabag]

What am I missing here? No-one is going to gag places like this. They would be gagging Edward Snowden's stuff in the Guardian long before they got around to us!

Yes, one of their pearls of wisdom is to ban any cross-border promotion of ecigs (if I remember the crux of it correctly), which would apply to any internet forum

 

[zigackly]

If you're talking about this proposed addition to the TPD, then it will not apply to you or me or forums like this:

e) any form of public or private contribution to any event, activity or individual with the aim or direct or indirect effect of promoting electronic cigarettes and involving or taking place in several Member States or otherwise having cross-border effects is prohibited;

I'll show you why not with a quote from the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, Article 11:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected."

The EU cannot bring into place any law which breaches that charter without a separate enactment of law to change the charter, which is not within the scope of the TPD. The TPD only addresses the manufacture, presentation and sale of tobacco products in the EU, and cannot withdraw your right to freedom of expression. That's a fundamental right.

What they are doing in the TPD, if that bit even makes it in there, is trying to stop people who manufacture or sell ecigs from promoting those products across borders, not to "gag" anyone.

 

[anthonyb]

I stand corrected, thank you.