Diacetyl and related compounds

[efemera]

I'm about to place a new order for flavourings and have been cross referencing ingredients from the very helpful link posted by druss1. The Perfumers Apprentice site also has this information regarding flavours containing acetoin or acetyl proprionyl catalyzing into minute quantities of diacetyl. Does anyone have any useful links regarding the current thinking on "acceptable" levels of diacetyl, because if I discount any flavours containing acetoin or acetyl proprionyl my list of possibilities is significantly reduced. Also, anyone know anything about triacetin? Or butyric acid?

 

[oldhippydude]

I think if you are concerned enough to be researching this you surely would be happier working with a reduced selection of flavours rather than looking at acceptable levels.I think you will find the research you are looking for has not been done yet.
I did not look in too much detail into these things but decided just to ignore all custardy,creamy or buttery flavours.
I also use less flavour in my mixes than anyone else it seems (5% or 6%) as any as yet undiscovered risks are more likely to be in the flavour rather than any other component.
Your safest bet is to not vape or vape without flavour.

 

[Gonloopy]

If you are concerned abouts Diacetyl and AP have a look at Flavour Art. Hers a quote from their page....


None of the FlavourArt flavourings on this website use Diacetyl, Acetoin, or Acetyl Propionyl, refined sugars, protein, genetically modified ingredients, animal ingredients of any kind, preservatives, sweeteners, or colours. They are all gluten and peanut free, suitable for diabetics, vegetarians, and vegans.



i really like the majority of their flavours too

 

[rughead121]

Because Diacetyl is avoidable it will have no 'safe' exposure level however as the quantities that may be present in your juice by Acetoin catalysing to form Diacetyl it is regarded by many to be low risk.

If you decide to use flavours (or pre-mixed juice)that contain these compounds you have to ask 'is it safer than smoking? The answer is almost certainly yes but almost isnt proven.

If you are not comfortable with this risk then you should avoid them but bear in mind that just because it isn't on the label does not mean it isn't there. If you wish to avoid the risk you need to look for flavours that state they do not contain these.

The following isn't my work but it sums up your other question.

Butyric Acid: Chemical formula C4H8O2 Butyric Acid can be found naturally in butter, milk and some cheeses. This is being used by some manufacturers as an alternative for Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl to give a buttery note, but can be quite harsh if used at too high a ratio and taste not so good with a bitter after taste and at high ratios can also prove to be an irritant when inhaled. So this may be a bit of wasted effort as there seems to be a pattern emerging. When we say a pattern emerging it seems that every effort made to change to another compound to replace the buttery custard note is met by other possible inhalation issues, but bear in mind all of the issues and testing are generally done to do with these compounds in their extreme form during manufacturing and risk to working in that environment on a daily basis, how this translates into the diluted form in an e-liquid we are no experts on this, we can only give you the industry findings in the work place.

 

[efemera]

Thanks, guys. Useful input from all. The FlavourArt info in particular was of practical use in compiling my current order. It's a shame not every manufacturer is as open as TPA with their ingredients list.

I've been doing my research regarding these compounds not because I necessarily want vaping to be 100% risk free, but because if I'm doing "harm reduction", might as well minimise all known risks.

 

[Diche]

Bear in mind that tobacco smoke contains significant levels of diacetyl, far more than e liquid, so any eliquid is by definition harm reduction. I take it you've read the research by Farsalinos.

 

[Colonelboom]

Butyric Acid: Chemical formula C4H8O2 Butyric Acid can be found naturally in butter, milk and some cheeses. This is being used by some manufacturers as an alternative for Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl to give a buttery note, but can be quite harsh if used at too high a ratio and taste not so good with a bitter after taste and at high ratios can also prove to be an irritant when inhaled. So this may be a bit of wasted effort as there seems to be a pattern emerging. When we say a pattern emerging it seems that every effort made to change to another compound to replace the buttery custard note is met by other possible inhalation issues, but bear in mind all of the issues and testing are generally done to do with these compounds in their extreme form during manufacturing and risk to working in that environment on a daily basis, how this translates into the diluted form in an e-liquid we are no experts on this, we can only give you the industry findings in the work place.

Indeed, all these 'clean' GC-MS reports you are going to see for diketones are going to mean diddly squat when people who believe their butter notes previously supplied Diacetyl and Acetyl propionyl find out that what they replaced it with is just as bad in a different way (but currently not on anyones radar so therefore currently 'safe')

If you currently vape you most likely used to smoke, if vaping juice with any amount of diketones in is safer than smoking then you are already winning. There will likely never be a 100% safe set of chemicals used for flavours, diluents etc so the only truly safe thing to do is avoid vaping, diesel cars, industrial fumes, mobile phones, microwaves, household chemicals

Just teasing on the last part but the sentiment is pretty much spot on.

 

[scrumpox]

Thanks, guys. Useful input from all. The FlavourArt info in particular was of practical use in compiling my current order. It's a shame not every manufacturer is as open as TPA with their ingredients list.

I've been doing my research regarding these compounds not because I necessarily want vaping to be 100% risk free, but because if I'm doing "harm reduction", might as well minimise all known risks.

Risk perception and management is a very personal thing ... 100 people look at the same risk and react in 99 different ways ... after all, there's always a risk that two people will do the same thing.

Then there are the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns ... there's a risk that you'll worry so much about the compounds in the flavourings you'll become unhappy and eventually depressed. Inevitably the depression becomes so deep that the stress takes years off your life.

I looked at a few of the TPA MSDSs and every fucking one of them states there's a risk if inhaled. What's the point of reading all that and carrying on vaping? Is that minimising all known risks?

You are doing harm reduction by vaping instead of smoking.
If you want to minimise all known risks then don't vape.

Somehow you'll do the same as the other 99 people and draw a line somewhere in between and how you'll reach that decision has more to do with your personality than the available scientific information. One more line drawn in the sand.

With me it's line 27 - tomatoes. For these are the work of the devil. Great in salads, excellent when concentrated and spread on a pizza base. An abomination when sliced and added to sandwiches. The idea of vaping tomatoes goes against everything I've read in Leviticus and St Paul's Letters to the Corinthians. Stand by me mate. In a few years' time we'll be laughing at all those naysayers who carried on vaping Bloody Maries and Margherita pizza juices only to find that god in his infinite wisdom and mercy smote them all down by sending their batteries into thermal runaway and blowing holes through the back of their necks. I will have my venting vengeance sayeth the lord. Keep my tomatoes and the sabbath pure. Amen.

 

[Mawsley]

I'm hunting juice with extravalue supersized diacetyl and shit. I can't get enough of danger, me. I've even got to the stage of hiring a whore to play Russian Roulette with a gun to my temples, pulling the trigger with every toke I take.

 

[cloudcuckoo]

Its said that VG produces acrolein. But so do french fries.