Mixing from concentrate or shortfills, my experience...

[welshman68]

Just got caught in a shortfill trap I bought tobacco trail and put 10ml of nic salts but the flavour has disappeared

 

[Badboybez]

Quite right guys, my feeling exactly.
In my opinion faced with the TPD regs the easiest way to go for the manufacturers was the shortfill route, and a godsend for many vapers.
But as you say, some manufacturers take care / pride in their liquids, and cater properly for adding nic, some, mainly the larger ones do not.
The problem is compounded by the TPD regs in that nic shots can only be 20mg in strength, so the higher the nic you want, the more the flavour gets weakened.
I used to diy most of my juice, but for various personal reasons this has been difficult lately, but hoping to get back on track with that now, and have just ordered a couple of litres of vg, and some pg.
My preffered way to buy ready made liquid is to buy 100ml of my favourites, and add the small amount of 72mg nic that I have.
If I want to try a new liquid I buy a 10ml bottle of 6mg rather than a shortfill, so that I get the flavour as it should be.

 

[Fossilus]

Shortfills have become very popular since TPD kicked in back in May 2016, but is it a reliable method of getting your liquids without having to buy them in 10ml bottles?

DIY by concentrate is another popular method, but requires more thought and materials – which is the better option?

The method I prefer to use is mixing my own e-liquid with concentrate, my reasoning being that I can buy the flavours/concentrates I want and add my own Nicotine, VG, and PG to the desired mix.

Shortfills don’t work. Why?

Let’s take a 3mg 70/30 mix for example. You buy either 40 ml or 80 ml and then add your own unflavoured nicotine shot to the mix – give it a shake, off you go.

What you’ve done is dilute the mix by either 10 or 20ml. This is going to make a massive difference to the overall flavour, also depending on the ratio of your nicotine shot you could also be changing the VG/PG ratio, ending up with something different to what you originally wanted.

If you want to increase your nicotine mix, let’s say 6mg or even higher, you dilute even further.

Some flavours are strong, and this dilution wouldn’t be noticed that easily. Other, more refined mixes suffer the most.

I bought a 100ml shortfill (80ml plus 2x 10 ml nicotine shots) of one of my favourite flavours as well as a 30ml bottle of concentrate – same flavour. I mixed both at the same time and steeped them for six weeks in the same place – same temp, same humidity. Identical.

The short fill was weak in colour and flavour, the 100ml I made from concentrate looked and tasted as expected. I tried giving the shortfill a few more weeks, reckoning the experiment had already proven my hypothesis, but the results remained the same. The only place for it, after all that, was the waste bin.

This dilution effect would be fine if the e-liquid makers took it into account, but this would mean different concentration mixes and different PG/VG ratios for every flavour available. Practically, this is not feasible – time, cost, and storage means they will have to stick with a regular 70/30 or 80/20 base.

As stated earlier, I usually mix from concentrate as I know exactly what is going into my liquid – the mix, the ratio, the percentage of concentrate I want to use. But I have been lazy in the past and have purchased a few short fills. My results have been listed above.

That’s not to say that mixing from concentrate is perfect and infallible. There’s the initial cost in equipment such as beakers, syringes, bottles, and needles – plus your nicotine, VG, and PG – before you even buy your concentrate. Some of these things are easier to find than others, but it’s still an expensive initial set up.

With the concentrate, that’s easy to find online – but I’ve always found it best to stay with the well-known stores, like Chefs Flavours. The amount of concentrate percentage needed to mix it should be listed on the bottle, but again in my experience a lot just state 20%. Personal preference may play a part, but in my experience 20% seems the average mix amount. It’ll take a few tries to find the right combination.

Before TPD came into effect, all e-liquid was mixed to a dedicated recipe, with new flavours being tried and tested at a variety of strengths to give the optimum taste for the widest audience.

Now, that process seems to have been pushed on to the consumer – the 20% on the bottle is a quick and easy average to give, and I have my suspicions a lot of flavours aren’t fully tested at varying strengths and 20% is just quickly, and easily, slapped on the bottles.

For example, my current flavours and mixes are: custard (22%), mums milk (24%), RY4 (14%), and blackcurrant and aniseed (17%). An average of 19% volume. Not a million miles from 20%, but if I’d stuck with that suggestion some flavours would have been too weak and others far too strong.

These are all my thoughts on the pros/cons of shortfills and concentrates. You may have a different experience or not agree, but I wanted to share my findings.

That has gave me a lot to think about and i totally agree with you thanks for the heads up

 

[Fossilus]

Shortfills have become very popular since TPD kicked in back in May 2016, but is it a reliable method of getting your liquids without having to buy them in 10ml bottles?

DIY by concentrate is another popular method, but requires more thought and materials – which is the better option?

The method I prefer to use is mixing my own e-liquid with concentrate, my reasoning being that I can buy the flavours/concentrates I want and add my own Nicotine, VG, and PG to the desired mix.

Shortfills don’t work. Why?

Let’s take a 3mg 70/30 mix for example. You buy either 40 ml or 80 ml and then add your own unflavoured nicotine shot to the mix – give it a shake, off you go.

What you’ve done is dilute the mix by either 10 or 20ml. This is going to make a massive difference to the overall flavour, also depending on the ratio of your nicotine shot you could also be changing the VG/PG ratio, ending up with something different to what you originally wanted.

If you want to increase your nicotine mix, let’s say 6mg or even higher, you dilute even further.

Some flavours are strong, and this dilution wouldn’t be noticed that easily. Other, more refined mixes suffer the most.

I bought a 100ml shortfill (80ml plus 2x 10 ml nicotine shots) of one of my favourite flavours as well as a 30ml bottle of concentrate – same flavour. I mixed both at the same time and steeped them for six weeks in the same place – same temp, same humidity. Identical.

The short fill was weak in colour and flavour, the 100ml I made from concentrate looked and tasted as expected. I tried giving the shortfill a few more weeks, reckoning the experiment had already proven my hypothesis, but the results remained the same. The only place for it, after all that, was the waste bin.

This dilution effect would be fine if the e-liquid makers took it into account, but this would mean different concentration mixes and different PG/VG ratios for every flavour available. Practically, this is not feasible – time, cost, and storage means they will have to stick with a regular 70/30 or 80/20 base.

As stated earlier, I usually mix from concentrate as I know exactly what is going into my liquid – the mix, the ratio, the percentage of concentrate I want to use. But I have been lazy in the past and have purchased a few short fills. My results have been listed above.

That’s not to say that mixing from concentrate is perfect and infallible. There’s the initial cost in equipment such as beakers, syringes, bottles, and needles – plus your nicotine, VG, and PG – before you even buy your concentrate. Some of these things are easier to find than others, but it’s still an expensive initial set up.

With the concentrate, that’s easy to find online – but I’ve always found it best to stay with the well-known stores, like Chefs Flavours. The amount of concentrate percentage needed to mix it should be listed on the bottle, but again in my experience a lot just state 20%. Personal preference may play a part, but in my experience 20% seems the average mix amount. It’ll take a few tries to find the right combination.

Before TPD came into effect, all e-liquid was mixed to a dedicated recipe, with new flavours being tried and tested at a variety of strengths to give the optimum taste for the widest audience.

Now, that process seems to have been pushed on to the consumer – the 20% on the bottle is a quick and easy average to give, and I have my suspicions a lot of flavours aren’t fully tested at varying strengths and 20% is just quickly, and easily, slapped on the bottles.

For example, my current flavours and mixes are: custard (22%), mums milk (24%), RY4 (14%), and blackcurrant and aniseed (17%). An average of 19% volume. Not a million miles from 20%, but if I’d stuck with that suggestion some flavours would have been too weak and others far too strong.

These are all my thoughts on the pros/cons of shortfills and concentrates. You may have a different experience or not agree, but I wanted to share my findings.

 

[zouzounaki]

What’s this all about?

 

[scrumpox]

The hidden cost of starting out with mixology (from concentrate) is waste. It's very easy to build up a cupboard full of flavours that you've only produced a few small testers of or for recipes that you didn't enjoy or pursue further. It's also part of the fun though, learning how each flavour works and combines with others is a hobby in itself.
You do need a little bit of self-discipline and a pedantic approach to note taking to avoid waste, it's also worth noting that with good storage, the shelf life of flavourings is way more than the best before date on the bottle. Don't throw away perfectly good flavours.

I've found plenty of other uses for many of these food flavourings ... squashes, milkshakes, baking for example. I'm a regular user of Huel meal replacements; a squirt to change up the flavour makes a change in an otherwise boring routine. I also bake my own bread ... a simple white loaf with cinnamon swirl or banana nutloaf makes lovely breakfast toast!

 

[adrian_uk]

I agree shortfills just didn't work for me , Was never completely happy with the flavours.

DIY is very easy once you get your head round the maths, Thats literally the most complicated part and you get websites/programs that will do that for you, I only make my own now , More complex recipes are not that difficult and in my experience i haven't managed to make a flavour that i was literally unvapable , A few less to my taste then others, But nothing disgusting , As long as you stick to flavours you know you like.

More complex recipes arent that difficult either , just generally common sense , if your mixing strawberry and lime for example you know the limes going to be a lot stronger , so a higher % of strawberry and lower of lime etc...

And if your into basic one flavour recipes , you can mix 60ml bottles for about 60-80p .

And thats using inawera , which isn't the cheapest flavour concentrate out there , So you could probably do it cheaper , not sure as you don't need as much inawera % wise .

 

[zouzounaki]

These days most of the flavours I like to puff as single flavours anyway. Inserts tobacco ones and a couple of others. They don’t need blended, I like them well enough by themselves. Blends I make rarely have more than two or three. Keep it simple, is how I think about it.

 

[joey williamson]

i make ejuice too

 

[bellyman]

i make ejuice too

Yes, I have seen.