MVP3 coming soon

[Trungo]

That's true but I'm stocked, as many rebuilders are, with Kanthal wire ... various gauges, single, twisted and flat/ribbon.
Seems to me that Evolv have decided that safety is the number one priority and in so doing they have made the best the enemy of the good.

I would ask ... what is so bad about Kanthal that it cannot figure in Evolv's vision of the future of vaping?

Perhaps more evidence will come to light as the DNA40's objectives and Dr Farsalinos's research into coil temperatures are openly discussed.

As far as I can gather over certain temperatures the nasty toxins that are produced get closer to harmful levels, this tied in with things like cotton burning over a certain temperature means temperature control is probably a good thing.
So you can drain a tank completely dry and not worry about it.

Now I don't know the reason for having to use non resistance wire as I've never seen what happens when you make a coil out of it but I'm guessing it doesn't glow like kanthal.
I think the dna 40 chipset automatically detects what wire is being used so it shouldn't affect the way anyone vapes as you still have to set the wattage no matter what wire type you use.

 

[scrumpox]

The DNA40 will run Kanthal Just fine, I think however that it is a particular property of Nickel wire that is being exploited here, Kanthal is Designed to maintain it's resistance at higher temperatures wheras if I remember correctly Nickel begins increase in resistance quite dramatically (for a metal). I would assume that this change is monitored (Brandon did mention that The DNA40 does like the coil to be the same temp as the mod and if you unscrew / screw on an atty it sometimes asks if this is the same atty) Presumably by reading the resistance of the room temperature coil and watching how it responds they can use some kind of algorithm to create a control loop that maintains the atty at a precise resistance above the original reading thereby maintaining a specific temperature...

I read that , twice and I'm thinking ... and? What algorithm for nickel couldn't be created for kanthal?

I know it runs kanthal but if you do you can't use the temperature setting ... you can set watts but not temperature ... that's half way to be best feature, right?
From the Busardo interview with Brandon it sounded to me like he approved nickel because it degrades LEAST. So he's dismissing kanthal because it degrades more under very high temperatures? Is that real world or is he protecting safe vapers from becoming fool hardy?

Vapers who use kanthal ... do they all build subohm? Hell, no. Vapers who have DNA30 devices, do they all vape at 30 watts? Hell, no.

Evolv are chasing FDA approval, so they've turned into the nannies. I think that's the story here.

 

[twoeyedbob]

Yep, the DNA40 chip in the top end version makes a lot of sense. It's a great development.
But no temperature control feature for builds using kanthal wire? That's the best feature pretty much useless for me.

must have missed something here...i presume some info has come out regarding the dna40 chip that i aint seen ?

 

[scrumpox]

As far as I can gather over certain temperatures the nasty toxins that are produced get closer to harmful levels, this tied in with things like cotton burning over a certain temperature means temperature control is probably a good thing.
So you can drain a tank completely dry and not worry about it.

Now I don't know the reason for having to use non resistance wire as I've never seen what happens when you make a coil out of it but I'm guessing it doesn't glow like kanthal.
I think the dna 40 chipset automatically detects what wire is being used so it shouldn't affect the way anyone vapes as you still have to set the wattage no matter what wire type you use.

Yeah, I totally buy the safety thing, I mean safer though, not total safety. Evolv have taken a decision out of my hands here, they're saying I can't vape safely if I'm using kanthal ... I can only do that using nickel wire.
I don't buy that. This is lowest common denominator stuff, for an audience ...

Vaping is about harm reduction, not total safety. If I want total safety, I don't vape.

 

[Tubbyengineer]

I read that , twice and I'm thinking ... and? What algorithm for nickel couldn't be created for kanthal?

I know it runs kanthal but if you do you can't use the temperature setting ... you can set watts but not temperature ... that's half way to be best feature, right?
From the Busardo interview with Brandon it sounded to me like he approved nickel because it degrades LEAST. So he's dismissing kanthal because it degrades more under very high temperatures? Is that real world or is he protecting safe vapers from becoming fool hardy?

Vapers who use kanthal ... do they all build subohm? Hell, no. Vapers who have DNA30 devices, do they all vape at 30 watts? Hell, no.

Evolv are chasing FDA approval, so they've turned into the nannies. I think that's the story here.

You appear to have not understood the point of the post - Nickel is used because Kanthals resistance does not change enough, if it dont change you can't measure the change to create the control loop - and no he is not dismissing Kanthal it just doesn't work for the temperature sensing tech.

 

[twoeyedbob]

so it's a toy that doesnt/cant work with kanthal...
it's better having a toy you can choose to play with than not have it at all.
tbh the fda seem to have no idea anyway...i'm sure we could easily persuade them it was a safety feature..even if we dont actually use it....that's of course if the fda ever get to the stage where they give a f*ck what temperature we're vaping at.

 

[scrumpox]

You appear to have not understood the point of the post - Nickel is used because Kanthals resistance does not change enough, if it dont change you can't measure the change to create the control loop - and no he is not dismissing Kanthal it just doesn't work for the temperature sensing tech.

Bear with me Tubby, I've had a few pints ...

So Evolv have a technology that works with nickel but won't work with kanthal, so they're deploying this technology just because they have it.

My question is why they don't have the technology for kanthal, the most common, almost ubiquitous, wire currently in use by vapers?

Is it beyond the wit of Evolv? Is it impossible? Or have they not attempted it for some reason?

Busardo demonstrated the effect of high temp on kanthal using a 100W mod. They referenced Farsalinos's study ... what conclusion did you draw from that?

 

[Tubbyengineer]

Yeah, I totally buy the safety thing, I mean safer though, not total safety. Evolv have taken a decision out of my hands here, they're saying I can't vape safely if I'm using kanthal ... I can only do that using nickel wire.
I don't buy that. This is lowest common denominator stuff, for an audience ...

Vaping is about harm reduction, not total safety. If I want total safety, I don't vape.

Evolv have NOT said that you are not vaping safely if you use Kanthal, Evolv have said that their temperature control system will increase safety for vapers by PREVENTING THE CREATION OF HARMFUL BYPRODUCTS CAUSED BY HIGH TEMPERATURE BREAKDOWN OF ELIQUID INGREDIENTS. If people would actually watch the video It's PBusardo who asks Brandon if Nickel is safe to use considering people switched from NiChrome to Kanthal. Brandon replies that Nickel is stable and already used in Atties. At NO point does anyone say Nickel is safer than Kanthal or that Kanthal is bad...

It's really bugging me that so many people are ready to trash this before it's even released because it means they've got to change wires to use the temp control feature - get a grip people you're ready enough to try the latest wicking material so some different wire shouldnt be a problem; and, if they'd announced the DNA250 you'd all be pissing yourselves with joy and queueing up to get them. So before saying it's crap / pointless / not for me I'd suggest you find out what it does and why it does it THEN make up your mind...

 

[Inky68]

Bear with me Tubby, I've had a few pints ...

So Evolv have a technology that works with nickel but won't work with kanthal, so they're deploying this technology just because they have it.

My question is why they don't have the technology for kanthal, the most common, almost ubiquitous, wire currently in use by vapers?

Is it beyond the wit of Evolv? Is it impossible? Or have they not attempted it for some reason?

Busardo demonstrated the effect of high temp on kanthal using a 100W mod. They referenced Farsalinos's study ... what conclusion did you draw from that?

They set out to provide temperature control and the nature of kanthal is that it doesn't change resistance greatly as the temperature of the coil rises. Nickel however does alter it's resistance as it heats up so they can use the resistance to work out the mean temperature of the coil. If it were possible to use kanthal to achieve the temperature control they would have. Instead they have had to get the major players in tanks ie kanger and Aspire etc to come on board to offer nickel coils to make it viable. I'm sure Evolv would have avoided this ballache if possible. Unfortunately you can't change the physical properties of kanthal to make it do something it can't do. I honestly think this chip is ground breaking and will usher in a new age in vaping.

 

[Tubbyengineer]

Bear with me Tubby, I've had a few pints ...

So Evolv have a technology that works with nickel but won't work with kanthal, so they're deploying this technology just because they have it.

My question is why they don't have the technology for kanthal, the most common, almost ubiquitous, wire currently in use by vapers?

Is it beyond the wit of Evolv? Is it impossible? Or have they not attempted it for some reason?

Busardo demonstrated the effect of high temp on kanthal using a 100W mod. They referenced Farsalinos's study ... what conclusion did you draw from that?

It wont work with Kanthal because the way Kanthal is made makes its resistance change very little as it heats up, there simply isnt enough change to be measured. Its like the difference in elasticity of Metal and rubber - both stretch and return to a certain extent but the rubber (nickel) does it a lot more than the metal (Kanthal) in time they may be able to make it work with Kanthal, but its probably a long way off and very expensive requiring highly precise components to measure microscopic changes in resistance

The demontration of heat on Kanthal was a simple illustration of metal fatigue / softening due to heat and nothing to do with the way the temp control works.

The reference to Dr Farsalinos was highly relevant as he will be releasing a study showing toxins created in E-liquid by high temperatures, and those temperatures could actually be a lot lower than people imagine - think of how coils gunk up with sugary liquids - thats caused by the sugar breaking down due to heat... Which is exactly what this temperature controlis aimed at.

as an example take a custard liquid, Custards can break down if to hot and create Diacetal (IIRC) say for example that happens at 478F, set the temp control at 450F and you can vape your custard safe in the knowledge that it wont get overheated...