TRPR and Taxes after Brexit

[Alastair Paterson]

I would like to propose a question or debate of sorts as to what will happen after March 2019 once the UK has divorced the EU and we are no longer members of the EU.

As we are all aware the TRPR/TPD came into effect approx 18 months ago restricting lots of areas within our Hobby the main two being

E-Liquid containing nicotine can be no higher than 20 mg and contained in bottles no greater than 10 ml

Tanks can no have a cappacity of over 2ml.

There are few comapanies out there that have worked within the rules but have made is so there was a similarity to pre TPD/TRPR.
Tanks being made and shipped with a silicone bung reducing thier capacity to 2ml to comply with TRPR and TPD which can be easily removed by the end user adding an extra 2ml capacity or slightly more.
E-Liquid comapanies selling their products in 50ml bottles etc minus the nicotine and bundeling them with correct number of Nic shots to allow the end user to turn the E Liquid into either 3mg or 6mg .

So as we are aware the UK goverment can not make any changes to the TRPR whilst we are still within the EU and by the time we have left we will have been under its boot for 3 years. Once out of the EU and the Uk goverment has adaopted all the laws the wish to import, sorted out any trade deals ( if we leave without one) id say it will be another 3-4 years before they would even consider looking at making any amendments to thr TRPR. By this time we will have been under TRPR for a good 6-7 years, i believe by then it will be similar to the No smoking Ban in Public Places where we will have virtually all just accepted it as the Norm.

As for Taxes i wonder how long it will be before we see nicotine containg E-Liquid in the annual budget. Im going to say within the next 2 - 3 years as there are more and more smokers switching from ciggerettes to Vaping either for the health benefits or for savings to thier bank balance. The more that do switch id say the better, however as they do the UK goverment takes a hit on the taxes they currently collect from tobacco, which should in turn reduce the amount of taxes needed by the NHS to cover illness caused by smoking eventually. At present the avg pirce for a 10ml bottle of liquid containing nicotine is £3.50 i'd have to estimate that in 3-4 years that is going to rise to £6 or more not because it cost more to produce but because the Gov are taxing the living daylights out of it to make up for the shortfall they have with smokers switching to Vaping.

Please note these are my humble ramblings i am not expert, just what i have come to understand of the TRPR/TPD etc and the Tax Man from varoius snippets ive read online etc.

So fellow Apes what are your thoughts, do you think some of my ramblings may hold some truth about them or should i book myself into the nearest hospital and request a 10 by 10 padded cell.

 

[zouzounaki]

What would be their basis for adding tax to eliquid though? They pile health/prevention tax on fags because of the overwhelming weight of evidence that smoking kills you. It would be hard for them to make an argument to excessively tax a smoking cessation product which is over time ever increasingly being proven to be relatively
harmless when compared with smoking.

 

[Simon G]

What would be their basis for adding tax to eliquid though? They pile health/prevention tax on fags because of the overwhelming weight of evidence that smoking kills you. It would be hard for them to make an argument to excessively tax a smoking cessation product which is over time ever increasingly being proven to be relatively
harmless when compared with smoking.

I agree, it's not logical...

They are losing loads from new low tax cars, there's Fiat 500 models that are Zero road tax because of the low emissions. .... and obviously 0.9L engines are more economical so they lose tax in petrol sales too... but they haven't started wacking a load of extra tax on tyres to get the money back have they? I don't think that just because they are losing tax from smoking they they will automatically try and find it back in the area of vaping. ... if anything it makes more sense to keep piling the tax on cigarettes each year.

 

[Alastair Paterson]

Unfortunately, politicians rarely seem to do the logical thing


Let’s take the car tax analogy


a 2007 Corsa 1.2 diesel pumps out 110g/km co2 and is currently taxed at band C which is 31.50 per year

the same vehicle if you buy it tomorrow with 67 license plate is going to cost you 160 the first year and then 140 every year after so the only vehicle which is exempt from road tax is a fully electric vehicle which has 0 emissions.


The Uk government changed the vehicle excise duty to combat the tax they were losing due to car manufacturers making their engines more cost efficient and producing less C02 (which is a good thing) and therefore liable for less road tax.

Rather than encourage the trend and keep cars manufacturers improving performance whilst reducing C02 which in turn improves air quality and therefore public health they slapped a big ass tax hike on them.



I’m aware that is not cigarettes and vaping however I can see something similar happening, where they should be helping and promoting the switch to vaping or quitting altogether instead I fear they will just apply a tax on the E-Liquid, Mods etc to recoup some of the tax they are bound to be losing from cigarettes, most likely using it is for the public health as a reason. We are aware that Vaping is at least 95% safer and less harmful than smoking, but there is still that 5% of unknown yet they are likely to use this against us all in the guise just to get more of that hard-earned money we have.

 

[Simon G]

ah, that's interesting .... I didn't know that I don't drive a car.

The tax issues could be argued about all night though, I think VAT is way too high as it is, I'd rather pay a few more % on vaping products and less on VAT overall. ... and I'm sure the girls will have a very strong view on paying VAT on 'women's sanitary products' ... which really cannot be justified.

Nobody wants to pay more tax on anything and I actually think there's more of a case to have 0% tax on vaping products. ... and I guess that's why I find it difficult to imagine, but like you alluded to.... politics (party politics especially) and logic don't often go hand in hand.

I guess my answer to your original question is... I don't know.

 

[Badboybez]

Unfortunately, politicians rarely seem to do the logical thing


Let’s take the car tax analogy


a 2007 Corsa 1.2 diesel pumps out 110g/km co2 and is currently taxed at band C which is 31.50 per year

the same vehicle if you buy it tomorrow with 67 license plate is going to cost you 160 the first year and then 140 every year after so the only vehicle which is exempt from road tax is a fully electric vehicle which has 0 emissions.


The Uk government changed the vehicle excise duty to combat the tax they were losing due to car manufacturers making their engines more cost efficient and producing less C02 (which is a good thing) and therefore liable for less road tax.

Rather than encourage the trend and keep cars manufacturers improving performance whilst reducing C02 which in turn improves air quality and therefore public health they slapped a big ass tax hike on them.



I’m aware that is not cigarettes and vaping however I can see something similar happening, where they should be helping and promoting the switch to vaping or quitting altogether instead I fear they will just apply a tax on the E-Liquid, Mods etc to recoup some of the tax they are bound to be losing from cigarettes, most likely using it is for the public health as a reason. We are aware that Vaping is at least 95% safer and less harmful than smoking, but there is still that 5% of unknown yet they are likely to use this against us all in the guise just to get more of that hard-earned money we have.

I quite agree.

 

[zouzounaki]

Unfortunately, politicians rarely seem to do the logical thing


Let’s take the car tax analogy


a 2007 Corsa 1.2 diesel pumps out 110g/km co2 and is currently taxed at band C which is 31.50 per year

the same vehicle if you buy it tomorrow with 67 license plate is going to cost you 160 the first year and then 140 every year after so the only vehicle which is exempt from road tax is a fully electric vehicle which has 0 emissions.


The Uk government changed the vehicle excise duty to combat the tax they were losing due to car manufacturers making their engines more cost efficient and producing less C02 (which is a good thing) and therefore liable for less road tax.

Rather than encourage the trend and keep cars manufacturers improving performance whilst reducing C02 which in turn improves air quality and therefore public health they slapped a big ass tax hike on them.



I’m aware that is not cigarettes and vaping however I can see something similar happening, where they should be helping and promoting the switch to vaping or quitting altogether instead I fear they will just apply a tax on the E-Liquid, Mods etc to recoup some of the tax they are bound to be losing from cigarettes, most likely using it is for the public health as a reason. We are aware that Vaping is at least 95% safer and less harmful than smoking, but there is still that 5% of unknown yet they are likely to use this against us all in the guise just to get more of that hard-earned money we have.

That’s not really a useful analogy though. If you were to compare the two, e-cigarettes would be comparable to electric cars, not a diesel corsa. The diesel corsa still creates a relatively high level of pollution and runs on a combustion engine, even if it polutes relatively less so than another car that creates more co2 and toxic pollutants.

 

[Ment]

The problem is that we can't predict what sort of attitude future governments will have. As long as 5 years ago there was talk of vaping being so beneficial that losses in tax revenue would be offset by savings on the NHS, but that doesn't mean that future governments won't seize the opportunity to make a few quid extra by taxing nicotine.

And some things just don't make sense. Our government and health authorities are pro vaping, yet somebody chose to implement the 2ml tank limit which was an optional aspect of the TPD.

 

[zouzounaki]

But the government don’t think of the 2ml limit as being punitive, it’s intention is about safety. They don’t see it as being anti-vaping. While we know it’s stupid, they don’t. They’ want to prevent somebody spilling all the liquid out their tank and poisoning themselves.

Plus, the 2ml limit is a pain in the arse for us who like bigger tanks but I wouldn’t see it as anti vaping per se. Somebody that wants to buy a vape to try and quit smoking, I would think would be unlikely to change their mind because tanks available hold 2ml of liquid. 2ml of liquid means nothing to somebody who hasn’t already been vaping and knows how much juice last for a certain period of time.

 

[Vaping Biker]

Personally I feel that we have a LONG way to go before we make any progress with politicians and vaping. While the recent Parliament discussion was very positive, it's far from ensuring understanding from the government's standpoint - points like tank sizes and juice bottles are not at the forefront of their discussion because at this point they're just trying to understand that vaping is less likely to kill you.
I believe the subject of what could happen post-Brexit has been mentioned, but without the knowledge in the Parliamentary walls, it'll be incredibly difficult to force change.

Nobody has a crystal ball so we don't know what we're going to get into once Brexit happens, but it seems as though vaping won't be too high on the agenda to me, particularly with some of the Parliamentarians getting excited about heat not smoke products.

Longer term though I think that there will be taxation on vaping products/nic/juice, and with regards to restriction of products, that may continue. The IBVTA is working to address the knowledge levels of governing bods, and so I truly believe the absolute only thing we can do as vapers is educate the smokers and non-smokers. To bring change we need numbers, and a couple of million vapers in the whole population of our fair islands will not cut the mustard.

For what it's worth, I believe the government will be losing out on:

- Cigarette taxation money
- Corporate tax money from cigarette manufacturers and distribution, as well as Pharma
- Pharma, everything from patches to life extending drugs for those affected by combustible tobacco related illness (way more money in death than cure)

And more.

Also, if people live longer, more of a drain on National resources from NHS to pensions, more people retired and not ploughing money back into the economy. I'm sure some suit and booted government economist has approached the question of 'what happens if people live 10 more years' - this country is on it's arse as it is, we could be proper buggered if people actually die less!

So will the government look to recoup that lost money somewhere? Surely it has to? Will it be right or fair to impose a 'sin tax' on products that will extend your life? Hell no, will that stop the idiots doing it? Sadly, no IMO.

So is Brexit going to help vapers? Maybe, maybe not, and I don't think there will be much middle ground. With the current level of awareness by the general public when it comes to vaping, I'm genuinely fearful of what could happen without their backing. They can't take it away, but they can make it bloody hard as we're seeing all over the world right now.