Cancerogenous in vg and pg at high temps.

[Tubbyengineer]

Did they give details of the equipment used i.e. tanks, coils and wicking materials? I remember a similar study like this was around a couple years back turned out it was largely debunked because the setup wasn't suitable for the power liquid flow and a later study claimed that the spikes were seen from the coil and cotton burning. Every time I have seen a "study" like this they are loath to publish details of the actual setups.

This wasn't a single study as such, more a scientific discussion on the various aspects of the research and how ecigs work, Evolv's engineer was there to explain the technical aspects of temperature control and EC Physics, Kistler was there to talk about the Chemistry and EC Literature, He took pains to point out that CE4 studies are useless and out dated - and I qoute him directly, "People need to stop using CE4's for Aerosol emission studies, no one's even usng them in the community anymore".
He also points out the many common flaws in a lot of the older studies. It would benefit people to actually watch these videos and gain an understanding of whats going on...

 

[Tubbyengineer]

You would have an acrid burning taste in your mouth. This is because formaldehyde is formed when pg/vg begins to combust. No combustion = no formaldehyde. If there is no acrid burning taste then you're probably fine. This is evolv trying to make news where there is no news and get everyone buying their product. I love evolv stuff. I think tc is brilliant, and does prevent dry hits as it's meant to, but this is just advertising dressed up as new science.

You'll find that you CAN produce Aldehydes without combustion, in fact that was the point of the charts from the reactor study - they heated PG & VG independently of a coil and wick to study the exact effects of temperature independently of any other "External" influences such as wicking and airflow - and it wasn't a study conducted by Evolv but an independent study Cited at the bottom of the slide
It's not advertising, and it's science dressed up as science, you really don't understand TC at all do you? If you've setup a mod correctly then you'll get a consistent vape at a consistent coil temperature, I vape at around 420F, the "Dry Hit prevention" you speak of is actually just a side effect of TC, You don't get dry hits because the coil is never allowed to get hot enough to cause a dry hit - even when the wick is almost dry. Perhaps you should go and read up on TC before posting inaccurate and misleading information.
You should probably also watch all of the videos before commenting...

 

[Tubbyengineer]

So my question is, am I good to be vaping with a tfv8 since there's no temp control and I can't tell if it heats up to 470?

It depends on how "Hot" the vape feels, the hotter it is the worse it's likely to be...

 

[Tubbyengineer]

If you heat anything up hot enough it will burn and release carcinogens.

Would love to see a study on how much wattage it takes for it to become and issue.

It's not wattage thats the problem - 15w on a CE$ is bad news, 15w on a Subtank is pretty weak, 15w on a TFV12 is just not going to get started...

 

[Tubbyengineer]

So how could one use a non tc tank and know if they are inhaling that kind of stuff especially if the tank isn't a tc tank

Temperature is the Key, the hotter the vape the more likely you'll have problems, and "Dry Hits" are really bad - but no one would willingly continue to vape a dry hitting device...

 

[Tubbyengineer]

This is not what they are saying, you could be vaping at 480F and never get a dry burn or at 300F and get a dry burn , all depends how is your set up, but what it says is that >>>>>> the metal emissions in the coil at 450F+ is the issue.

No. it's nothing to do with metal emissions, it's the thermal decomposition of the VG and PG into Aldehydes that's the issue...

 

[vapelyfe45]

Yeah I noticed if I hit my cleito 120 four five times in a row it's not that hot, but if I do that with the tfv it gets super hot. Guess i'm going to have to stick with my cleito

 

[jjde]

You'll find that you CAN produce Aldehydes without combustion, in fact that was the point of the charts from the reactor study - they heated PG & VG independently of a coil and wick to study the exact effects of temperature independently of any other "External" influences such as wicking and airflow - and it wasn't a study conducted by Evolv but an independent study Cited at the bottom of the slide
It's not advertising, and it's science dressed up as science, you really don't understand TC at all do you? If you've setup a mod correctly then you'll get a consistent vape at a consistent coil temperature, I vape at around 420F, the "Dry Hit prevention" you speak of is actually just a side effect of TC, You don't get dry hits because the coil is never allowed to get hot enough to cause a dry hit - even when the wick is almost dry. Perhaps you should go and read up on TC before posting inaccurate and misleading information.
You should probably also watch all of the videos before commenting...

Hi @Tubbyengineer. I did watch the videos, before I commented.

The formaldehyde is being formed from an oxidisation of the glycerol. Glycerol combining with oxygen in the presence of heat is a combustion reaction. I believe they decide to call it oxidisation, and perhaps there is a reason and it isn't just semantics. 450f is the temperature this starts occuring.

At about 450f, cotton will begin to burn. It's commonly known as a dry hit if you singe your cotton, right? So this is a really good marker for when pg/vg will begin to produce formaldehyde due to heat. In turn, I can't see how telling people to avoid going to temperatures or wattages/set-ups where they are close to a dry hit is bad/misleading advice. I also think this is relatively well known and documented.

Yes they've collected a lot of data. I find the bit where evolv gave a distribution of vape temperature from carefully controlled and calibrated devices very interesting (I think the average looks to be about 410f). However, I don't think there is anything particularly new, and a lot that is presented (as you say) is a review of the literature that already existed. This is why I said that this is not new science.

The bit that I think is advertising is how this has trickled though to web forums in a manner packaged to scare the crap out of people without a tc setup. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it does look like an attempt to increase interest in tc, which evolv have a vested interest in.

I don't think I suggested that the only point of tc was to prevent a dry hit. I just said it does prevent them remarkably well. I use tc for all sorts of other reasons but I was just staying on topic.

I think you're being very harsh, and I don't think anything I've written warrants it really.

 

[kojak]

@Tubbyengineer

No. it's nothing to do with metal emissions, it's the thermal decomposition of the VG and PG into Aldehydes that's the issue...

Yes you are 100% correct my sincere apologies, reading on a mobile after a hard days work I did not check what thread I was on , I was referring to the metal emission of Ti, Kanthal, Ni at high temps, and yes nothing to do with this thread, so hands down, I was wrong, hope I ll be forgiven.

 

[Tubbyengineer]

Hi @Tubbyengineer. I did watch the videos, before I commented.

The formaldehyde is being formed from an oxidisation of the glycerol. Glycerol combining with oxygen in the presence of heat is a combustion reaction. I believe they decide to call it oxidisation, and perhaps there is a reason and it isn't just semantics. 450f is the temperature this starts occuring.

At about 450f, cotton will begin to burn. It's commonly known as a dry hit if you singe your cotton, right? So this is a really good marker for when pg/vg will begin to produce formaldehyde due to heat. In turn, I can't see how telling people to avoid going to temperatures or wattages/set-ups where they are close to a dry hit is bad/misleading advice. I also think this is relatively well known and documented.

Yes they've collected a lot of data. I find the bit where evolv gave a distribution of vape temperature from carefully controlled and calibrated devices very interesting (I think the average looks to be about 410f). However, I don't think there is anything particularly new, and a lot that is presented (as you say) is a review of the literature that already existed. This is why I said that this is not new science.

The bit that I think is advertising is how this has trickled though to web forums in a manner packaged to scare the crap out of people without a tc setup. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it does look like an attempt to increase interest in tc, which evolv have a vested interest in.

I don't think I suggested that the only point of tc was to prevent a dry hit. I just said it does prevent them remarkably well. I use tc for all sorts of other reasons but I was just staying on topic.

I think you're being very harsh, and I don't think anything I've written warrants it really.

You obviously didn't get the chemistry, This is a thermal degredation - NOT Oxidation, if you look at the screenshot you'll see the change comes about from the free radical loss of H2O, not the addition of oxygen (which is the very definition of Oxidation).
You'll also find that DRY cotton first starts to singe at 420f, cotton with VG/PG on it will remain un-singed at temperatures over 500f, and those folks who still use Mesh or silica cannot burn their wicks at all but still get dry hits...
You also misunderstood where Evolv got the Temperature data from - It comes from E-cigstats which is an optional part of E-scribe and as such the data is an actual snapshot of what real users are doing with their devices.
I never claimed this was new science and in fact took pains to indicate that this was an analysis of previous studies and is part of a seminar for professionals interested in EC studies and testing.

This is not advertising, it was never "packaged", it is in fact part of a Seminar never intended for the general public that someone on a Forum found online and clipped into their post asking for opinions.

. I think tc is brilliant, and does prevent dry hits as it's meant to,

TC isn't meant to prevent dry hits, it's meant to control temperature - It's why they call it "Temperature Control"...

I probably am being Harsh, but you're giving out advice based on faulty assumptions, if you don't know don't advise, or at least say you're not sure. but "This is what I think"...