Jugg1es
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2014
- Messages
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The levels are far far less than if you smoked
I Need Custard
- Thread starter chubbaduckie
- Start date
To put some of this in perspective, the best known "problem chemicals" (Diacetyl, Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl & Butyric Acid) were already raising problems (and lawsuits in the US) before people started vaping. Remember that these flavours were not originally intended to be vapourised and inhaled but instead drunk or eaten in drink or food (or used in perfumes).
From a Perfumers Apprentice (TPA) blog in 2010 (six years ago!):
Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl are still being used as a Diacetyl substitute despite many who insist that they are just as harmful when inhaled.
So "Diacetyl free" can mean they use Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl as substitutes. When consumers start worrying (as they have been) about those two chemicals then manufacturers turn to yet another substitute.
Apparently CAP (Capella) may be using Butyric Acid as a substitute for the other three "baddies" in their V2s but even that has raised eyebrows and panic.
In the US, their FDA (Food & Drug Administration) were only requiring manufacturers in the food industry to report levels of these chemicals if greater than 1% of ingredients used (this might have changed or may be under review especially because of the increased attention to vaping).
For those interested, research results can be found here : http://www.clearstreamonward.com/home-en/ and also a list of chemical in TPA flavours can be found here: http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=513-86-0 just click on List to view the breakdowns. More information can be found on FEMA here http://www.femaflavor.org/home but it's a bit arcane. There is also http://www.perfumerflavorist.com/ which is easier to search and will take you to linked papers, blogs etc. Then of course there is this https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib10142010.html which is rambling but necessarily so being mindful of how many lawyers there are in the US! and of course there is NIOSH here http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/flavorings/exposure.html.
There are varying opinions on what are safe levels of inhaling any of these chemicals (what a surprise!). I often read that there shoud be no reason to be alarmed because it's parts per billion but how many parts? Some have found thousands which then brings it back down to parts per million. It's a bit like research that declares a result of ND, not detected. All that often means is that a substance was not detected using the given test parameters required by the remit. And what about cigarettes? Well, here's a list of some of the nasties determined to be in tobacco smoke, past and present: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3084482/table/t1-ijerph-08-00613/
Diacetyl levels are at least a hundred times higher in cigarette smoke than in e-cig vapour (figures vary wildly). That seems to be the common belief. If you vape in exactly the same way (draw strength) as you smoked cigs then your safety is probably beyond question. Relatively. Big clouds anyone?
Me? Glad I'm vaping and not smoking and I love custard/vanilla/cherrycream juices and happily use concentrates and flavours in my DIY juice even when known to contain nasty chemicals. However, also happy to pay the premium to juice vendors who can provide the hard work and magic of recreating flavours using the minimum of known lung and bronchial irritants. There are flavour vendors who claim to be wholly nasty chems free and use ethically sourced raw materials all organically grown. Pardon my cynicism but it might be as genuine as those Fair Trade labels you see on almost everything nowadays. I'm probably more likely to succumb to some smoking related illness than any ill effects from vaping. I always think of my brother in law who was fit as a fiddle, ran marathons for recreation, died of mesothelioma because of a summer forty years earlier when he helped his father dispose of some asbestos.
TL,DR no one really knows but there are certainly nasties used in flavourings in e-liquid, everyone should read about them, understand the risks and make their choices.
From a Perfumers Apprentice (TPA) blog in 2010 (six years ago!):
"Pretty much by definition, a vanilla custard flavor, no matter who makes it, will have both acetoin and acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl) in it. Just like it would be hard to bake a cinnamon cookie with no cinnamon, it would be really hard (pretty much impossible) to create a vanilla custard flavor with no acetoin or acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl). If you would like to learn a bit how to tell the differences, you can compare our Vanilla Custard (which has both acetoin and acetyl propionyl), with our Vanilla Bean Ice Cream. The Vanilla Bean Ice cream does not have any acetoin in it, but otherwise is the same flavor as the Vanilla Custard."
Things have moved along since vaping took off in a big way!
Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl are still being used as a Diacetyl substitute despite many who insist that they are just as harmful when inhaled.
So "Diacetyl free" can mean they use Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl as substitutes. When consumers start worrying (as they have been) about those two chemicals then manufacturers turn to yet another substitute.
Apparently CAP (Capella) may be using Butyric Acid as a substitute for the other three "baddies" in their V2s but even that has raised eyebrows and panic.
In the US, their FDA (Food & Drug Administration) were only requiring manufacturers in the food industry to report levels of these chemicals if greater than 1% of ingredients used (this might have changed or may be under review especially because of the increased attention to vaping).
For those interested, research results can be found here : http://www.clearstreamonward.com/home-en/ and also a list of chemical in TPA flavours can be found here: http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=513-86-0 just click on List to view the breakdowns. More information can be found on FEMA here http://www.femaflavor.org/home but it's a bit arcane. There is also http://www.perfumerflavorist.com/ which is easier to search and will take you to linked papers, blogs etc. Then of course there is this https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib10142010.html which is rambling but necessarily so being mindful of how many lawyers there are in the US! and of course there is NIOSH here http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/flavorings/exposure.html.
There are varying opinions on what are safe levels of inhaling any of these chemicals (what a surprise!). I often read that there shoud be no reason to be alarmed because it's parts per billion but how many parts? Some have found thousands which then brings it back down to parts per million. It's a bit like research that declares a result of ND, not detected. All that often means is that a substance was not detected using the given test parameters required by the remit. And what about cigarettes? Well, here's a list of some of the nasties determined to be in tobacco smoke, past and present: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3084482/table/t1-ijerph-08-00613/
Diacetyl levels are at least a hundred times higher in cigarette smoke than in e-cig vapour (figures vary wildly). That seems to be the common belief. If you vape in exactly the same way (draw strength) as you smoked cigs then your safety is probably beyond question. Relatively. Big clouds anyone?
Me? Glad I'm vaping and not smoking and I love custard/vanilla/cherrycream juices and happily use concentrates and flavours in my DIY juice even when known to contain nasty chemicals. However, also happy to pay the premium to juice vendors who can provide the hard work and magic of recreating flavours using the minimum of known lung and bronchial irritants. There are flavour vendors who claim to be wholly nasty chems free and use ethically sourced raw materials all organically grown. Pardon my cynicism but it might be as genuine as those Fair Trade labels you see on almost everything nowadays. I'm probably more likely to succumb to some smoking related illness than any ill effects from vaping. I always think of my brother in law who was fit as a fiddle, ran marathons for recreation, died of mesothelioma because of a summer forty years earlier when he helped his father dispose of some asbestos.
TL,DR no one really knows but there are certainly nasties used in flavourings in e-liquid, everyone should read about them, understand the risks and make their choices.
Last edited:
bigbluenose
Postman
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2016
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- 285
Capella V1 is a great custard and equally Flavorah Vanilla Custard is just as good.
IMHO you can't go wrong with either?
IMHO you can't go wrong with either?
cheltenham cat
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i use the GVC clone off here as a base(although i have the V1 at 20%) and then i add a flavour to it...fudge,peanut butter, cupcake etc....... very nice
gscott1979
Achiever
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- Aug 14, 2014
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Another really good custard recipe is the ment's custard in the recipe section I always have at least 100-200ml of that in the cupboard
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