Ecigzone
Initiate
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- Sep 12, 2013
- Messages
- 36
"(32h) Disparities between national laws and practices on advertising and sponsorship
concerning electronic cigarettes present an obstacle to the free movement of goods
and the freedom to provide services and create an appreciable risk of distortion of
competition."
Are they taking the piss?
concerning electronic cigarettes present an obstacle to the free movement of goods
and the freedom to provide services and create an appreciable risk of distortion of
competition."
Are they taking the piss?
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Ecigzone
Initiate
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2013
- Messages
- 36
"In order to enable Member States to carry out their
surveillance and control tasks, manufacturers and importers of electronic
cigarettes and refill containers should be required to submit a notification of the
relevant products before they are placed on the market."
Does this include e-cigarette starter kits, that don't contain nicotine? Or just disposables with nicotine contained inside?
Basically do they want us to tell them when we are bringing a new battery to the market? This wouldn't make any sense!
surveillance and control tasks, manufacturers and importers of electronic
cigarettes and refill containers should be required to submit a notification of the
relevant products before they are placed on the market."
Does this include e-cigarette starter kits, that don't contain nicotine? Or just disposables with nicotine contained inside?
Basically do they want us to tell them when we are bringing a new battery to the market? This wouldn't make any sense!
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K
KulrMeStoopid
Guest
I dont find it offensive at all... Malcom X had the right idea when those in "control of us" don't listen, you make them listen.
The governments of supposed democracy work for their citizens and those in power FORGET THAT. Sometimes, they need a kick up the ass to be reminded. Something that doesnt happen often enough in my opinion. The world is becoming a policed world full of restriction prohibition and resentment.
http://youtu.be/6FMNFvKEy4c
Doofry
Achiever
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2013
- Messages
- 1,100
Exactly my thoughts KMS, they forget who they work for, but when they are in power we mean less than nothing!
I remember when David CaMORON stood on the flight deck of HMS Ark Royal, he stood there and thanked the troops for all the hard work and effort and how we all fight for freedom and protect the innocent, and that we in the RN were safe and we would be looked after.
He flew back to the UK and scrapped the Ark Royal and then decimated the forces!
Oh and got rid of our Carrier Borne Harriers as well!
The Libyan conflict, the RAF expended £250 million just on Tornado cover from Italy in 3 months, that money could have kept the Ark Royal and 2 Harrier squadrons going for a minimum of a year.
We mean nothing to politicians unless it is election year.
I remember when David CaMORON stood on the flight deck of HMS Ark Royal, he stood there and thanked the troops for all the hard work and effort and how we all fight for freedom and protect the innocent, and that we in the RN were safe and we would be looked after.
He flew back to the UK and scrapped the Ark Royal and then decimated the forces!
Oh and got rid of our Carrier Borne Harriers as well!
The Libyan conflict, the RAF expended £250 million just on Tornado cover from Italy in 3 months, that money could have kept the Ark Royal and 2 Harrier squadrons going for a minimum of a year.
We mean nothing to politicians unless it is election year.
anthonyb
Achiever
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2013
- Messages
- 2,469
The whole lot is a load of twaddle.
They didn't have a clue about 2nd gen + when they thought that lot up. And probably still don't.
And with the continuous uptake of 2nd gen. (4 more at my works this week) the shit will hit the fan. When all those users that don't know yet, what the EU up to, suddenly find out they can't get them anymore. Civil unrest will be the least of their problems.
There's enough people unhappy with them now, then throw millions of disgruntled vapers into the mix. And the zombie apocalypse, will look like a teddy bears picnic, in comparison.
They didn't have a clue about 2nd gen + when they thought that lot up. And probably still don't.
And with the continuous uptake of 2nd gen. (4 more at my works this week) the shit will hit the fan. When all those users that don't know yet, what the EU up to, suddenly find out they can't get them anymore. Civil unrest will be the least of their problems.
There's enough people unhappy with them now, then throw millions of disgruntled vapers into the mix. And the zombie apocalypse, will look like a teddy bears picnic, in comparison.
VaperCaper
Achiever
- Joined
- May 21, 2013
- Messages
- 1,973
(32a) Electronic cigarettes and refill containers should be regulated by this Directive,
unless they are - due to their presentation or function - subject to Directive
2001/83/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council1 or to Council
Directive 93/42/EEC2
[unless you have a Medical authorisation (will cost several million £ and take several years to obtain) you must follow these rules
Ties high strength e-cigs exclusively to Big T Big P and anyone else with very deep pockets]
[..] In order to enable Member States to carry out their
surveillance and control tasks, manufacturers and importers of electronic
cigarettes and refill containers should be required to submit a notification of the
relevant products before they are placed on the market.
[the devil on this is in the detail, if all that's required is a letter to Govt. dept. x then not a big issue, if you have to wait for a reply first, good luck with that]
(32c) Nicotine containing liquid should only be allowed to be placed on the market
under this Directive, where the nicotine concentration does not exceed 20 mg/ml.
[this means that the HIGHEST legally available e-liquid is going to be 18mg/ml as noone wants to produce liquid at 20.0000001mg/ml by accident and then get put out of business. The same way that you can only get Nic base right now at 72mg/ml where the legal limit is 75mg/ml.
This will establish a black market for nicbase and drive DIYers underground which has to be orders of magnitude worse for public health than things as they stand now]
This concentration allows for a delivery of nicotine that is comparable to the
permitted dose of nicotine derived from a standard cigarette during the time
needed to smoke such a cigarette.
[utter bollocks. There is scientific evidence showing that you need 54mg/ml to do this in the peer reviewed literature, and why do you think bigT are using 54mg liquid? because they like wasting money?]
In order to limit the risks associated with
nicotine, maximum sizes for refill containers, tanks and cartridges should be set.
[this increases the risk as there will be more bottles of liquid around and increases waste]
Delivery of nicotine doses
at consistent levels under normal conditions of use is necessary for health
protection, safety and quality purposes, including to avoid the risk of accidental
consumption of high doses.
[maybe if you were describing a medicine that might be true. Nicotine is a recreational drug though and users self titrate. It's nearly impossible to overdose on nicotine from vaping. If you use e-liquid as eyedrops, or drink the stuff then you can easily OD but those are not 'normal conditions of use']
(32e) Electronic cigarettes and refill containers could create a health risk when in the
hands of children. Therefore, it is necessary to ensure that such products are
child- and tamperproof, including by means of child-proof labelling, fastenings
and opening mechanisms.
[what is a child proof label exactly? - and this is already covered in CLP regulations]
(32f) In view of the fact that nicotine is a toxic substance and considering the potential
health and safety risks, including to persons for whom the product is not intended,
nicotine-containing liquid should only be placed on the market in electronic
cigarettes or in refill containers that meet certain safety and quality requirements.
It is important to ensure that electronic cigarettes do not break or leak during use
and refill.
[this is unpossible. what kind of unobtanium are manufacturers supposed to make e-cigs out of so that they cannot break? this also vastly overrates the toxicity of nicotine from an ld50 based on centuries old 'science'
this could either be back door to banning items arbitrarily or something everyone just ignores as it makes zero sense as written]
Electronic cigarettes can develop into a gateway to nicotine addiction and
ultimately traditional tobacco consumption, as they mimic and normalize the
action of smoking.
[if I was only able to strike down one sentence in this whole sorry document it would be this one. e-cigs are NOT a gateway into smoking tobacco, anyone who has done both will be able to tell you why. They are a gateway OUT of smoking, a fact documented already in several studies and a document meant to outline the provisions of regulation has absolutely NO business using ANTZ buzz phrases anywhere inside it]
For this reason, it is appropriate to adopt a restrictive approach
to advertising electronic cigarettes and refill containers.
[You don't give us justifications for much of the rest of this document, why get all flowery about this one? In fact as e-cigarettes should not be sold to under 18's then all the restrictions on advertising need to be are such that they prevent advertising to children. (see alcohol)]
(32i) In order to perform their regulatory tasks, the Commission and Member States
need comprehensive information on market developments as regards electronic
cigarettes and refill containers. To this end manufacturers and importers of these
products should be subject to reporting obligations on sales volumes, preference of
various consumer groups and mode of sales. It should be ensured that this
information is made available to the general public, taking the need to protect
trade secrets duly into account.
[I've read this many times and I still don't understand what it says. i) define comprehensive ii) what exactly is a manufacturers or importers "preferred consumer group" and how specific do we need to be? Does "adults" count? - why exactly do I need to tell joe public how many of item X I sold and how and who is going to stop me from making stuff up?]
(32j) In order to ensure appropriate market surveillance by Member States, it is
necessary that manufacturers, importers and distributors operate an appropriate
system for monitoring and recording suspected adverse effects and inform the
competent authorities about such effects so that appropriate action can be taken. It
is warranted to provide for a safeguard clause that would allow Member States to
take action to address serious risks to public health.
[this reads like medicines regs again, see earlier comment]
(32k) In the context of an emerging market for electronic cigarettes, it is possible that,
although complying with this Directive, specific electronic cigarettes or refill
containers, or a type of electronic cigarette or refill container, placed on the
market could pose an unforeseen risk to human health. It is therefore advisable to
provide for a procedure to address this risk, which should include the possibility
for a Member State to adopt provisional appropriate measures. Such provisional
appropriate measures could involve the prohibition of the placing on the market of
specific electronic cigarettes or refill containers, or of a type of electronic cigarette
or refill container. In this context, the Commission should be empowered to adopt
delegated acts in order to prohibit the placing on the market of specific electronic
cigarettes or refill containers, or of a type of electronic cigarette or refill container.
The Commission should be empowered to do so, when at least three Member States
have prohibited the products concerned on duly justified grounds and it is
necessary to extend this prohibition to all Member States in order to ensure the
smooth functioning of the internal market for products complying with this
Directive but not presenting the same health risks. The Commission should report
on the potential risks associated with refillable electronic cigarettes by …∗∗∗
[this is at best unworkable, and probably unlawful.]
Member States are free to regulate such matters within the
remit of their own jurisdiction.
[the above sentence should be the entire directive]
unless they are - due to their presentation or function - subject to Directive
2001/83/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council1 or to Council
Directive 93/42/EEC2
[unless you have a Medical authorisation (will cost several million £ and take several years to obtain) you must follow these rules
Ties high strength e-cigs exclusively to Big T Big P and anyone else with very deep pockets]
[..] In order to enable Member States to carry out their
surveillance and control tasks, manufacturers and importers of electronic
cigarettes and refill containers should be required to submit a notification of the
relevant products before they are placed on the market.
[the devil on this is in the detail, if all that's required is a letter to Govt. dept. x then not a big issue, if you have to wait for a reply first, good luck with that]
(32c) Nicotine containing liquid should only be allowed to be placed on the market
under this Directive, where the nicotine concentration does not exceed 20 mg/ml.
[this means that the HIGHEST legally available e-liquid is going to be 18mg/ml as noone wants to produce liquid at 20.0000001mg/ml by accident and then get put out of business. The same way that you can only get Nic base right now at 72mg/ml where the legal limit is 75mg/ml.
This will establish a black market for nicbase and drive DIYers underground which has to be orders of magnitude worse for public health than things as they stand now]
This concentration allows for a delivery of nicotine that is comparable to the
permitted dose of nicotine derived from a standard cigarette during the time
needed to smoke such a cigarette.
[utter bollocks. There is scientific evidence showing that you need 54mg/ml to do this in the peer reviewed literature, and why do you think bigT are using 54mg liquid? because they like wasting money?]
In order to limit the risks associated with
nicotine, maximum sizes for refill containers, tanks and cartridges should be set.
[this increases the risk as there will be more bottles of liquid around and increases waste]
Delivery of nicotine doses
at consistent levels under normal conditions of use is necessary for health
protection, safety and quality purposes, including to avoid the risk of accidental
consumption of high doses.
[maybe if you were describing a medicine that might be true. Nicotine is a recreational drug though and users self titrate. It's nearly impossible to overdose on nicotine from vaping. If you use e-liquid as eyedrops, or drink the stuff then you can easily OD but those are not 'normal conditions of use']
(32e) Electronic cigarettes and refill containers could create a health risk when in the
hands of children. Therefore, it is necessary to ensure that such products are
child- and tamperproof, including by means of child-proof labelling, fastenings
and opening mechanisms.
[what is a child proof label exactly? - and this is already covered in CLP regulations]
(32f) In view of the fact that nicotine is a toxic substance and considering the potential
health and safety risks, including to persons for whom the product is not intended,
nicotine-containing liquid should only be placed on the market in electronic
cigarettes or in refill containers that meet certain safety and quality requirements.
It is important to ensure that electronic cigarettes do not break or leak during use
and refill.
[this is unpossible. what kind of unobtanium are manufacturers supposed to make e-cigs out of so that they cannot break? this also vastly overrates the toxicity of nicotine from an ld50 based on centuries old 'science'
this could either be back door to banning items arbitrarily or something everyone just ignores as it makes zero sense as written]
Electronic cigarettes can develop into a gateway to nicotine addiction and
ultimately traditional tobacco consumption, as they mimic and normalize the
action of smoking.
[if I was only able to strike down one sentence in this whole sorry document it would be this one. e-cigs are NOT a gateway into smoking tobacco, anyone who has done both will be able to tell you why. They are a gateway OUT of smoking, a fact documented already in several studies and a document meant to outline the provisions of regulation has absolutely NO business using ANTZ buzz phrases anywhere inside it]
For this reason, it is appropriate to adopt a restrictive approach
to advertising electronic cigarettes and refill containers.
[You don't give us justifications for much of the rest of this document, why get all flowery about this one? In fact as e-cigarettes should not be sold to under 18's then all the restrictions on advertising need to be are such that they prevent advertising to children. (see alcohol)]
(32i) In order to perform their regulatory tasks, the Commission and Member States
need comprehensive information on market developments as regards electronic
cigarettes and refill containers. To this end manufacturers and importers of these
products should be subject to reporting obligations on sales volumes, preference of
various consumer groups and mode of sales. It should be ensured that this
information is made available to the general public, taking the need to protect
trade secrets duly into account.
[I've read this many times and I still don't understand what it says. i) define comprehensive ii) what exactly is a manufacturers or importers "preferred consumer group" and how specific do we need to be? Does "adults" count? - why exactly do I need to tell joe public how many of item X I sold and how and who is going to stop me from making stuff up?]
(32j) In order to ensure appropriate market surveillance by Member States, it is
necessary that manufacturers, importers and distributors operate an appropriate
system for monitoring and recording suspected adverse effects and inform the
competent authorities about such effects so that appropriate action can be taken. It
is warranted to provide for a safeguard clause that would allow Member States to
take action to address serious risks to public health.
[this reads like medicines regs again, see earlier comment]
(32k) In the context of an emerging market for electronic cigarettes, it is possible that,
although complying with this Directive, specific electronic cigarettes or refill
containers, or a type of electronic cigarette or refill container, placed on the
market could pose an unforeseen risk to human health. It is therefore advisable to
provide for a procedure to address this risk, which should include the possibility
for a Member State to adopt provisional appropriate measures. Such provisional
appropriate measures could involve the prohibition of the placing on the market of
specific electronic cigarettes or refill containers, or of a type of electronic cigarette
or refill container. In this context, the Commission should be empowered to adopt
delegated acts in order to prohibit the placing on the market of specific electronic
cigarettes or refill containers, or of a type of electronic cigarette or refill container.
The Commission should be empowered to do so, when at least three Member States
have prohibited the products concerned on duly justified grounds and it is
necessary to extend this prohibition to all Member States in order to ensure the
smooth functioning of the internal market for products complying with this
Directive but not presenting the same health risks. The Commission should report
on the potential risks associated with refillable electronic cigarettes by …∗∗∗
[this is at best unworkable, and probably unlawful.]
Member States are free to regulate such matters within the
remit of their own jurisdiction.
[the above sentence should be the entire directive]
Doofry
Achiever
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2013
- Messages
- 1,100
I have said this before, on here and on twitter, it is potentially genocide on scale not seen since WW2.
The Human rights of millions of people across the EU ARE being breached, it is all crazy, look at the USA, vaping is being demonised and i think it is washington state that are slapping a 95% tax on ecigs, yet there are states that have legalised cannabis use?
It is going to be a long and hard fight as the EU are adamant to push this through, yet they are fucking themselves up by trying to talk legalese and not making sense and trying to justify a stance that doesn't exist!
The Human rights of millions of people across the EU ARE being breached, it is all crazy, look at the USA, vaping is being demonised and i think it is washington state that are slapping a 95% tax on ecigs, yet there are states that have legalised cannabis use?
It is going to be a long and hard fight as the EU are adamant to push this through, yet they are fucking themselves up by trying to talk legalese and not making sense and trying to justify a stance that doesn't exist!
Chegs
Veteran
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2013
- Messages
- 5,815
I started hunting out all tweets by Martin(fuckwit from EU)President regardless of its subject matter & asking him to drop the tweaking of the TPD wording,trying to get it to fit.I soon got bored of this and refreshed my feed to find that I'd been retweeted several times so perhaps we should all start hunting out his tweets & adding our own comments?
gords1001
Achiever
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2013
- Messages
- 2,031
If you needed your plumbing unblocked or your house rewired, would you call a plumber or electritian or some numpty in an office?
That appears to be what they are intending to do. I'd like to be there when thet are actually asked how most of this is even workable or enforceable.
Simply, they are shoving vaping into the hands of the black market. Look at how long cannabis was hard to get when they shut the borders after 9/11, it just massively boosted the home grown market. There are ebough chemists that will come up with ways of refining nicotine with a home assembled lab.
They have simply played their hand, proven that profit is far more important than public health.
Whats needed now is the whole debacle to go public, then the public to finally acknowledge that their freedom is as much a fantasy as any biblical figure and decide to really do something about it.
Well? I can dream cant I?
There's a quote from starwars
"So this is how democracy crumbles, not under arms but to rapturous applause"
That appears to be what they are intending to do. I'd like to be there when thet are actually asked how most of this is even workable or enforceable.
Simply, they are shoving vaping into the hands of the black market. Look at how long cannabis was hard to get when they shut the borders after 9/11, it just massively boosted the home grown market. There are ebough chemists that will come up with ways of refining nicotine with a home assembled lab.
They have simply played their hand, proven that profit is far more important than public health.
Whats needed now is the whole debacle to go public, then the public to finally acknowledge that their freedom is as much a fantasy as any biblical figure and decide to really do something about it.
Well? I can dream cant I?
There's a quote from starwars
"So this is how democracy crumbles, not under arms but to rapturous applause"
