Addiction...

[WardyGTC]

This is a valid point, but at the same time we could say, how are so few people able to quit using traditional nrt? In theory - if the main factor in smoking addiction is nicotine - as I understand it, it should actually work better than vaping, given the rates of absorption of the various methods of administration.

As I said earlier, the tactile aspect and just the sheer habit of smoking when you do - after meals, out for a drink etc are grossly underrated in all other cessation methods. I don't pop out for a vape because I'm craving my 1% nic, it's because that's what I do - what I've done for 34 years.

 

[zouzounaki]

Woma highlighted an issue in this discussion that I think needs clarifying. And having thought about it since last night I think the general, and understandable, lack of knowledge with regard to the mechanisms of heroin addiction plays a large roll.

So these are my final thoughts on this subject matter for whatever it is worth to whoever. Read it; don't read it. Like it; hate it. Agree or disagree. Call it subjective, call it what you like. It is what it is.

Seeing as I made the initial comparison... this is for clarification purposes only.

When I compared heroin to nicotine I was NOT taking into account the socio-economic implications of either addiction. Also, I was NOT referring to the physical withdrawal process. That would be stupid as there is no comparison between the two. Lack of observable physical withdrawal symptoms does not make smoking / nicotine any less addictive than heroin. Crack cocaine causes no observable physical withdrawal symptoms either. Does anybody here want to argue that crack cocaine is not highly addictive? Of course not.

In my comnparison I am solely referring to the PSYCHOLOGICAL DRIVE TO RE-USE AND ABUSE.

To be clear....

The psychological drive to re-use with regard to cigarettes / nicotine is MUCH stronger than the urge to re-use heroin. Heroin addicts do not crave heroin. They do not have wild mood swings if they don't have a hit for a few hours. They do not get angry, aggressive, depressed, sad or upset when they don't use for any extended period of time. The psychological drive to re-use heroin is actually very WEAK. There is no compulsion to use heroin like there is with cigarettes. Heroin addicts are created, in large part, because using heroin is pleasurable. People use it because they enjoy it. Not because they feel an urgent psychological impulse to use it and re-use it. They use it because they want to feel that nice warm glow. It feels so nice that they start using it once a week on top of the weekends because it feels so nice. Then twice a week and eventually it's every day of the week. Then one day they wake up after running out of money and gear and they feel fucking awful. They have the sensation of alien crawling under the skin all over their face and body. They have stomach cramps and they start throwing up. Eventually their back starts to ache in an undescibable way and their legs start to throb and they feel like they've just run 10,000 miles non stop and the aching and throbing just won't stop. It all just intensifies and gets worse as the hours go by. Hey presto! They have a habit and the only thing that will make them feel better / normal is using again and postponing the withdrawals until the next time they run out of money and gear OR they can endure a week or two residing up the devils ass-hole! Because that is the only thing I can compare heroin withdrawal to; Living inside Satan's ass-hole. NASTY. And THAT is what compels heroin addicts to lose control of their addiction and continue using out of control. And that is when the socio-economic ramifications begin to play their part in making it an extremely diffiicult addicition to conquer. For example, it being almost impossible to get help because the whole thing is a secret and you cannot just disappear for a month or two to a rehab. What would the family say? The kids? What would my boss say? Who will look after the cat? Etc. Cigarettes / nicotine on the other hand create no such physical withdrawals. Instead they pshycologically drive you to smoke. You have intense cravings not back ache. You have mood swings not stomach cramps. You feel depressed instead of feeling physical pain. A heroin addict can go without heroin for as long as it takes until withdrawal sets in without giving it a second thought. Usually 10 to 12 hours comfortably. 14 to 16 at a real push. Then the physical discomfort will compel them to use again. There is no compulsion to use during that time. If they use during that time and before they start to get sick it is purely by CHOICE. Because they WANT to use again. Smoking is not a CHOICE. Because the pshychological drive is SO STRONG. Your brain compels you to smoke and it will manifest itself in many ways, ultimately leading to you climbing the walls until you get your "fix". With nicotine your brain makes you use again. With heroin your body forces you to use again. Sit a junkie down for 10 hours and don't take your eyes off him and you will see no difference in him. And you won't until he goes in to withdrawal. Sit a smoker down for 10 hours and watch him and see how he reacts!!!

So is smoking as addictive as heroin? PSYCHOLOGICALLY.....YES. ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY. PHYSICALLY.... NO.

But addiction is not measured by how bad the PHYSICAL withdrawal symptoms are but by how severe the compulsion is to use and abuse something is. And those compulsions are stronger PSYCHOLOGICALLY with smoking than they are with heroin. So, yes, smoking is as addictive as heroin. IMHO.

Sorry for the long post.

@Mitz I couldn't have put this any better than what you've described here. Ironically what you've written here explains perfectly why I feel it's useless to compare these two compulsions to use a substance yet after reading this I totally get exactly why you compare the two.

 

[Woma]

@Mitz I couldn't have put this any better than what you've described here. Ironically what you've written here explains perfectly why I feel it's useless to compare these two compulsions to use a substance yet after reading this I totally get exactly why you compare the two.

And so we should, I'm on the fence with addictions, they are what they are, individual and personal.

A learned, eloquent post by mitz.

 

[zouzounaki]

I actually think a big part of the problem is how people define addiction and the breadth of meaning it can have for different people. Addiction is quite a nebulous term in many ways. Reading @Mitz post gave me the realization that regardless of the potential for addiction ( in the sense that I think of addiction, i.e. physical), it might well be the case that the struggle to get off fags could potentially be worse for some than coming off opiates, drink, benzodiazepines or any other seriously physically addictive substance. I said myself in an earlier post that the last time I tried to quit fags I thought I was having a psychotic episode or a nervous breakdown after a couple of days. And there are so many factors to it. Smoking is easy, for one. Fags are legal, you can ask any smoker for one, the stigma is far less, the repercussions of having a fag, at that point, seem negligible. Yet, as woma says, purely in terms of damage to health and putting aside other factors fags are immeasurably more harmful in terms of their effect on the body than most drugs.


edit for typo

 

[Mitz]

I actually think a big part of the problem is how people define addiction and the breadth of meaning it can have for different people. Addiction is quite a nebulous term in many ways. Reading @Mitz post gave me the realization that regardless of the potential for addiction ( in the sense that I think of addiction, i.e. physical), it might well be the case that the struggle to get off fags could potentially be worse for some than coming off opiates, drink, benzodiazepines or any other seriously physically addictive substance. I said myself in an earlier post that the last time I tried to quit fags I thought I was having a psychotic episode or a nervous breakdown after a couple of days. And there are so many factors to it. Smoking is easy, for one. Fags are legal, you can ask any smoker for one, the stigma is far less, the repercussions of having a fag, at that point, seem negligible. Yet, as woma says, purely in terms of damage to health and putting aside other factors fags are immeasurably more harmful in terms of their effect on the body than most drugs.


edit for typo

This is kinda what I was trying to say at the start. Giving up smoking is every bit as difficult as giving up heroin but for different reasons! Heroin addicts use methadone. Smokers get vaping mods. Getting addicted in the first place is unintentional and nobody knows at the beginning just how hard it will be to give up! If they did they would never start in the first place. Which is why I would never advise someone who doesn't already use an addictive substance to begin using it just because nothing else is available!

 

[zouzounaki]

yup, exactly the same ... it's vile now, god knows how we did it for so long.

something you said there though is really ringing a bell for me ... about you feeling like you were having a psychotic episode.

..... and I think that might be the difference, every time I've not been able to vape (long shifts at work, out at venues where I can't vape, whatever) I've never felt like I did when I couldn't smoke, I still want a vape, I'm craving a vape, I feel on edge too ... and when I eventually have a vape I feel all fuzzy and back to 'normal' .. and all that jazz, but I'm not climbing the walls and going mental like I did as a smoker.... I'm not convinced that means that nicotine is less addictive in a vape but I do think the withdrawal isn't has horrible, which means it must be the other things in smoke that cause those really bad withdrawal feelings.

That's the point though, isn't that absolutely horrendous withdrawal exactly what makes smoking fags as addictive as it is? Those really bad withdrawal feelings. I'm certain if I had no access to vaping starting tomorrow morning, I might struggle a bit for a while but nowhere near as much as if I suddenly couldn't smoke when I was still on the fags.

Additives, other alkaloids in tobacco leaves, some effect of the fact of combustion changing how it affects the smoker. I've smoked premade mainstream fags, rollies, american spirit, greek, spanish and german non big tobacco additive free brands and then whole organic tobacco leaves for the year or so before I started vaping and stopped smoking and I wonder if some were more or less "addictive" than others?

 

[Simon G]

That's the point though, isn't that absolutely horrendous withdrawal exactly what makes smoking fags as addictive as it is? Those really bad withdrawal feelings. I'm certain if I had no access to vaping starting tomorrow morning, I might struggle a bit for a while but nowhere near as much as if I suddenly couldn't smoke when I was still on the fags.

Additives, other alkaloids in tobacco leaves, some effect of the fact of combustion changing how it affects the smoker. I've smoked premade mainstream fags, rollies, american spirit, greek, spanish and german non big tobacco additive free brands and then whole organic tobacco leaves for the year or so before I started vaping and stopped smoking and I wonder if some were more or less "addictive" than others?

I don't think so no.... only because I feel that I was an addict way before I even knew what it was like to try and quit, I smoked for 25 years before I even tried to give up or even thought about it.

It's really difficult to think about to be honest, I started smoking at such a young age I can't remember what it was like before, how much time it took before it really 'grabbed' me, all that kind of thing. I just don't remember ... up until I started vaping I'd pretty much smoked all my life, it was my 'normal' ... I don't know what it's like to be nicotine free.

 

[oldhippydude]

I think we all get emotionally invested in our relationship with our addictions, resulting in a lot of this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[BrianShow]

Personally, I got into smoking marijuana quite slowly, trying it here and there. Then doing it socially while with friends which was around once or twice a month, continuing to smoke it more and more frequently until it became a daily thing. Typically I smoke it at my most stressful point in my day, and understood one day I cannot go without it anymore. Having read article on addiction resource, I realize I have an enemy I had to defeat. Haven't been smoking for over a year.