Addiction...

[zouzounaki]

We can only really talk about our own experiences, which will be different for everyone.... You are right that vaping is enjoyable and that's a big part of it... and for me it's far more enjoyable than smoking, that's the main reason I wouldn't go back to smoking and part of the reason it was so easy to switch ... for me it's like smoking but better in every way.

Maybe I will try and stop vaping for a day or two and see what happens as a personal experiment .... last time I tried to quit smoking cold turkey (which was about 6 months before I started vaping) after less than 24 hours I was curled up on my lounge floor in a fetal position, crying like a baby (literally) and begging my other half to go to the shop and buy some fags for me.

Agree completely with this, I find smoking disgusting now. I've asked for a fag once or twice when I've been having a drink and even then when a bit drunk put it it after one or two puffs and seriously regretted it. Interestingly it makes me feel sick as well as being totally rank.

I'm like you with the cold turkey from fags as well. Last time I tried it I was almost crying after 2 days and felt as though I was having a psychotic episode. I couldn't believe how badly it affected me, to be honest. Switching to vaping was a lot easier, although a tricky few days to a week at the start.

 

[zouzounaki]

This is where it gets clouded and why addiction is so complicated, we won't have any ex smokers on here who just gave up and moved on, we're here because we vape and are still addicted to nicotine!

There will indeed be plenty of people who have just given up, in my experience clinically, the most succesful giver uppers are people who have a smoking related illness, I've seen people give up even when they were given a short prognosis i.e. Weeks to months to live.

I don't doubt I am addicted to nicotine, it's the degree to which I'm not sure about. I'm definitely substantially less addictive to vaping than I was to fags.

The psychological driver to quit for some people who are terminally ill must be massive, I'd imagine. Massive regret. I find it pretty crazy that others are smok no right to the end. Scary, even.

 

[Woma]

Woma highlighted an issue in this discussion that I think needs clarifying. And having thought about it since last night I think the general, and understandable, lack of knowledge with regard to the mechanisms of heroin addiction plays a large roll.

So these are my final thoughts on this subject matter for whatever it is worth to whoever. Read it; don't read it. Like it; hate it. Agree or disagree. Call it subjective, call it what you like. It is what it is.

Seeing as I made the initial comparison... this is for clarification purposes only.

When I compared heroin to nicotine I was NOT taking into account the socio-economic implications of either addiction. Also, I was NOT referring to the physical withdrawal process. That would be stupid as there is no comparison between the two. Lack of observable physical withdrawal symptoms does not make smoking / nicotine any less addictive heroin. Crack cocaine causes no observable physical withdrawal symptoms either. Does anybody here want to argue that crack cocaine is not highly addictive? Of course not.

In my comnparison I am solely referring to the PSYCHOLOGICAL DRIVE TO RE-USE AND ABUSE.

To be clear....

The psychological drive to re-use with regard to cigarettes / nicotine is MUCH stronger than the urge to re-use heroin. Heroin addicts do not crave heroin. They do not have wild mood swings if they don't have a hit for a few hours. They do not get angry, aggressive, depressed, sad or upset when they don't use for any extended period of time. The psychological drive to re-use heroin is actually very WEAK. There is no compulsion to use heroin like there is with cigarettes. Heroin addicts are created, in large part, because using heroin is pleasurable. People use it because they enjoy it. Not because they feel an urgent psychological impulse to use it and re-use it. They use it because they want to feel that nice warm glow. It feels so nice that they start using it once a week on top of the weekends because it feels so nice. Then twice a week and eventually it's every day of the week. Then one day they wake up after running out of money and gear and they feel fucking awful. They have the sensation of alien crawling under the skin all over their face and body. They have stomach cramps and they start throwing up. Eventually their back starts to ache in an undescibable way and their legs start to throb and they feel like they've just run 10,000 miles non stop and the aching and throbing just won't stop. It all just intensifies and gets worse as the hours go by. Hey presto! They have a habit and the only thing that will make them feel better / normal is using again and postponing the withdrawals until the next time they run out of money and gear OR they can endure a week or two residing up the devils ass-hole! Because that is the only thing I can compare heroin withdrawal to; Living inside Satan's ass-hole. NASTY. And THAT is what compels heroin addicts to lose control of their addiction and continue using out of control. And that is when the socio-economic ramifications begin to play their part in making it an extremely diffiicult addicition to conquer. For example, it being almost impossible to get help because the whole thing is a secret and you cannot just disappear for a month or two to a rehab. What would the family say? The kids? What would my boss say? Who will look after the cat? Etc. Cigarettes / nicotine on the other hand create no such physical withdrawals. Instead they pshycologically drive you to smoke. You have intense cravings not back ache. You have mood swings not stomach cramps. You feel depressed instead of feeling physical pain. A heroin addict can go without heroin for as long as it takes until withdrawal sets in without giving it a second thought. Usually 10 to 12 hours comfortably. 14 to 16 at a real push. Then the physical discomfort will compel them to use again. There is no compulsion to use during that time. If they use during that time and before they start to get sick it is purely by CHOICE. Because they WANT to use again. Smoking is not a CHOICE. Because the pshychological drive is SO STRONG. Your brain compels you to smoke and it will manifest itself in many ways, ultimately leading to you climbing the walls until you get your "fix". With nicotine your brain makes you use again. With heroin your body forces you to use again. Sit a junkie down for 10 hours and don't take your eyes off him and you will see no difference in him. And you won't until he goes in to withdrawal. Sit a smoker down for 10 hours and watch him and see how he reacts!!!

So is smoking as addictive as heroin? PSYCHOLOGICALLY.....YES. ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY. PHYSICALLY.... NO.

But addiction is not measured by how bad the PHYSICAL withdrawal symptoms are but by how severe the compulsion is to use and abuse something is. And those compulsions are stronger PSYCHOLOGICALLY with smoking than they are with heroin. So, yes, smoking is as addictive as heroin. IMHO.

Sorry for the long post.

Mitz,

That clarifies a lot and I think think you're brave to speak so openly.

You qualify to speak as you have the experiences you explain, I'd just be lecturing!

As I do keep saying addiction is a strange monster. Codeine is more addictive than diamorphine, but it's readily available so the socio-economical impacts are lower, same as nicotine or alcohol (the most destructive addiction imo).

A very thoughtful post.

 

[jay2]

Intersting post! @Mitz
So, what you're really saying is that heoin is not so addictive as we tend to imagine ? It;s just that the withdrawal symptoms are especially ugly.

Whatever the case, I think that comparison is misleading people. I mean the kind of people who just absorb propaganda and don't trouble to think for themselves. They go from "nicotine is is just as addictive as heroin" straight to "Nicotine is a huge social problem , just like heroin" and "Those antisocial nicotine addicts need to be stamped out, just like those antisocial heroin addicts" . You just need to make that little connection in their brains, and the same old prejudices come flooding in.

It might not be misinformation , as such, but it functions the exact same way as misinformation

 

[Woma]

I don't doubt I am addicted to nicotine, it's the degree to which I'm not sure about. I'm definitely substantially less addictive to vaping than I was to fags.

The psychological driver to quit for some people who are terminally ill must be massive, I'd imagine. Massive regret. I find it pretty crazy that others are smok no right to the end. Scary, even.

You'd think that wouldn't you, I always thought, when you're told it's 'end of treatment, we will do more harm if we carry on' and as always, a patient asks how long they have, they ALWAYS do, not always straight away, but they do eventually, that you'd think, fuck this, I've a month, 3 months left, let's just go mental.

It just doesn't happen, we're odd animals.

Re you're feeling if being less addicted to vaping, I think many people feel that, which again, makes me guess that nicotine is 'more' potent from a cigarette.

 

[Mitz]

Intersting post! @Mitz
So, what you're really saying is that heoin is not so addictive as we tend to imagine ? It;s just that the withdrawal symptoms are especially ugly.

That is absolutely 100% correct. Un-aided heroin withdrawal is absolutely unbearble to the vast majority of addicts. Remember, heroin is a pain killer. So imagine years of self medicated pain relief applied to the CNS and then it is all of a sudden removed causing heightened sensitivity to everything. Then add brutal withdrawal symptoms!

 

[Woma]

Intersting post! @Mitz
So, what you're really saying is that heoin is not so addictive as we tend to imagine ? It;s just that the withdrawal symptoms are especially ugly.

Whatever the case, I think that comparison is misleading people. I mean the kind of people who just absorb propaganda and don't trouble to think for themselves. They go from "nicotine is is just as addictive as heroin" straight to "Nicotine is a huge social problem , just like heroin" and "Those antisocial nicotine addicts need to be stamped out, just like those antisocial heroin addicts" . You just need to make that little connection in their brains, and the same old prejudices come flooding in.

It might not be misinformation , as such, but it functions the exact same way as misinformation

That's a really interesting angle.

As I've said, nicotine is just as addictive (potentially, to keep you happy ), however, the withdrawal syndrome, coupled with the very nature of opiate abuse tends to either cause or exasperate socio-economic hardship. Tends to be the latter.

Our society leans towards sympathy of people addicted to a legal vice, smoking, alcoholism and people misusing legally purchased painkillers or even cough medicine with opiate cough suppressants.

All addictions are reversible, the negative social stigma doesn't help, but it's generally only the illegal vices that elicit this tutting, judging public attitude.

 

[Simon G]

Agree completely with this, I find smoking disgusting now. I've asked for a fag once or twice when I've been having a drink and even then when a bit drunk put it it after one or two puffs and seriously regretted it. Interestingly it makes me feel sick as well as being totally rank.

I'm like you with the cold turkey from fags as well. Last time I tried it I was almost crying after 2 days and felt as though I was having a psychotic episode. I couldn't believe how badly it affected me, to be honest. Switching to vaping was a lot easier, although a tricky few days to a week at the start.

yup, exactly the same ... it's vile now, god knows how we did it for so long.

something you said there though is really ringing a bell for me ... about you feeling like you were having a psychotic episode.

..... and I think that might be the difference, every time I've not been able to vape (long shifts at work, out at venues where I can't vape, whatever) I've never felt like I did when I couldn't smoke, I still want a vape, I'm craving a vape, I feel on edge too ... and when I eventually have a vape I feel all fuzzy and back to 'normal' .. and all that jazz, but I'm not climbing the walls and going mental like I did as a smoker.... I'm not convinced that means that nicotine is less addictive in a vape but I do think the withdrawal isn't has horrible, which means it must be the other things in smoke that cause those really bad withdrawal feelings.

 

[Mr Ripple]

The comparing of the addictive properties of nicotine with heroine in this type of context here is rediculous because the biggest contributing factor for people that seek out heroine is the thrill or worst case scenario desperation.
Can you say vaping would have the same pull as the above. Mmm vaping or sky diving. Mmm Im feeling so down i know I'll start vaping.
Heroines affects have been described as taking the most europhoric moment you have ever felt, times it by a thousand and your probably still not close to the experience you feel from it. The body takes a battering after every heroine hit and for those that habitually use do not physically recover before opting to get high again. Be-it to get away from life or stop the body with drawing.
Ask yourself as a smoker gagging for a ciggy would you go to the same lengths to get hold of one as a smack head would for another hit???

 

[Woma]

The comparing of the addictive properties of nicotine with heroine in this type of context here is rediculous because the biggest contributing factor for people that seek out heroine is the thrill or worst case scenario desperation.
Can you say vaping would have the same pull as the above. Mmm vaping or sky diving. Mmm Im feeling so down i know I'll start vaping.
Heroines affects have been described as taking the most europhoric moment you have ever felt, times it by a thousand and your probably still not close to the experience you feel from it. The body takes a battering after every heroine hit and for those that habitually use do not physically recover before opting to get high again. Be-it to get away from life or stop the body with drawing.
Ask yourself as a smoker gagging for a ciggy would you go to the same lengths to get hold of one as a smack head would for another hit???

It's not so ridiculous, if you have read all of the replies and posts it's an exploration of how substances can be just as addictive, but with very different terminal withdrawal effects, we all know someone won't rob or mug for a pack of fags from a withdrawal perspective, that has nothing to do with how addictive a compound is.

Heroin, or diamorphine is harmless at therapeutic dosages, no heroin addict has EVER died from a correct dose of decent medical grade diamorphine, with a clean needle. It's safe as houses, it doesn't batter the body in anyway, it doesn't affect any body system in any great way other than blood pressure. 10mg/kg all day every day.

That can't be said for smoking, it's lethal.