Article: You should probably stop vaping flavoured e-cigs right now

[Sibben]

OK, so I briefly read the source article in Environmental Science & Technology (link) this morning. Note that the "supporting information" pdf is free to access, and Table S3 essentially contains all the relevant data in the paper.

Thanks for a great interpretation of the data. If the experiment used 100% flavor as well and no VG or PG it would really put in the realm of irrelevant, would you agree?

*takes a puff*

 

[vandykevapes]

The reason for my email was i wanted to see what the professor ( tester ) had to say in his email he replied with.

Hello James,
Thank you for your interest in our work. I attach the paper.
Concentrations that we measured are shown in Fig.2 and in the supplemental
information. I have not followed all of the media coverage, but the few
publications I have seen reflect our findings fairly adequately (though
Daily Mail title is wrong - flavoring do not contain cancer-causing
chemicals, they form them when used in e-cigs). Aldehyde levels we
measured are very high in pure flavourings, even according to industrial safety standards.
Aldehyde levels in the devices we tested were comparable to those in
conventional cigarettes. However, e-cigs do not produce tar, for example,
so they are significantly cleaner in that respect. I checked some comments
to the articles and was a bit surprised that some people think we were
funded by tobacco industry, which is totally untrue. It was a small,
internally funded study. None of us, nor the institute had any connections
to the industry. I am not against e-cigs, but I think people need to know
what is in the vapor. Our goal was to draw attention to the problem. There
are many factors that affect aldehyde emissions, such as e-cig power,
construction, etc. I am sure there should be a way to make e-cigs safer.
For example, diluting flavors with PG/VG seems to reduce aldehyde
emissions exponentially.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Andrey

 

[danb]

If the experiment used 100% flavor as well and no VG or PG it would really put in the realm of irrelevant, would you agree?

Not irrelevant, but if this was the case it certainly makes the figures less concerning because nobody vapes undiluted flavourings. The dose makes the poison.

@vandykevapes I'm confused by this:

"Aldehyde levels we measured are very high in pure flavourings"

That seems to suggest they were testing flavour concentrates rather than finished eliquids, but in the article it definitely reads as though they are testing and diluting finished eliquids. It's not clear to me what Andrey means by "pure flavourings" in this context.

 

[mannikon]

Not irrelevant, but if this was the case it certainly makes the figures less concerning because nobody vapes undiluted flavourings. The dose makes the poison.

@vandykevapes I'm confused by this:

"Aldehyde levels we measured are very high in pure flavourings"

That seems to suggest they were testing flavour concentrates rather than finished eliquids, but in the article it definitely reads as though they are testing and diluting finished eliquids. It's not clear to me what Andrey means by "pure flavourings" in this context.

That last bit "For example, diluting flavors with PG/VG seems to reduce aldehyde
emissions exponentially." also is a curious statement.

 

[vandykevapes]

Well if you guys got your own questions feel free to write up what you want me to ask him, ill be happy to email him further, his paperwork which i will get up on here was charts of pure based flavouring and there was only 12 to 15 he tested, strangely enough, the sweeter ones was scoring the highest levels, what i have to ask him was it American liquids he tested mainly as we all know they add additives and other things to make things over the top!

 

[danb]

Well if you guys got your own questions feel free to write up what you want me to ask him, ill be happy to email him further, his paperwork which i will get up on here was charts of pure based flavouring and there was only 12 to 15 he tested

I would like clarification on whether the values in Figure 2 (and table S2) were obtained from finished, meant-for-vaping e-liquids or undiluted concentrates (which are not supposed to be vaped undiluted) - what does he mean by "pure flavourings" in the email? We interpret this as a not-for-vaping concentrate, but I'm not sure we are on the same page. This is a very important detail.

IMO what he's saying in the email doesn't line up with what is written in the paper, e.g.:

--
To determine whether the concentration of flavoring compounds affects aldehyde production, a series of experiments were performed with Brand III using “bubblegum” e-liquid diluted with the unflavored e-liquid of the same manufacturer and the same PG/VG content; 25, 50, and 75% dilutions were tested in addition to undiluted “bubblegum” and the unflavored e-liquids.
--

To me this reads as diluting a finished meant-for-vaping eliquid, not dilution of a "pure flavouring".

 

[Tubbyengineer]

It seems they acknowledged dry hits in the study and took measure to exclude it. Their funding comes from an environmental non profit institution so their motives looks clean tbh. The toxins they've reported here are at higher levels than in cigs too. I'm not saying ecigs are bad, but we think they're better than analogues on the basis of lack of evidence, so I think we should pay attention when new evidence emerges, although skeptically

I'd suggest looking a bit more closely - it's definetely been skewed. They used a 4 second puff duration with a 30 second rest - which sounds fine however during that 4 seconds they only drew 40ml of air through the device - thats just 8 teaspoons worth, and they did that 15 times before even starting the measurements (To get things up to operating temperature! who the hell vapes like that?). Thats a regimen thats going to get things way too hot...

 

[Tubbyengineer]

Well if you guys got your own questions feel free to write up what you want me to ask him, ill be happy to email him further, his paperwork which i will get up on here was charts of pure based flavouring and there was only 12 to 15 he tested, strangely enough, the sweeter ones was scoring the highest levels, what i have to ask him was it American liquids he tested mainly as we all know they add additives and other things to make things over the top!

I'd like to know where he got the puff regime from - 40ml over a 4 second puff is very very low airflow and is a recipe for dry hits as is the fairly high power levels, I'd also like clarification of whether these were ready to vape E-liquids or Flavour concentrates which we all know are not meant for vaping directly...

 

[Tubbyengineer]

surely the emissions testing everything is going through will sort this out ... as Aldehydes are banned in the emissions by TPD anyway.


also .. Non profit environmental does NOT mean it has not got a board of Big Tobacco and big pharma backers .. or a board staffed by anti any kind of smoking vaping nannies

DRI is the Research arm of the Nevada System of Higher Education. Nevada seems to be fairly enlightened in that it imposes no bans on indoor vaping at State or Local level...

 

[Tubbyengineer]

surely the emissions testing everything is going through will sort this out ... as Aldehydes are banned in the emissions by TPD anyway.


also .. Non profit environmental does NOT mean it has not got a board of Big Tobacco and big pharma backers .. or a board staffed by anti any kind of smoking vaping nannies

This is an excellent point - TPD emissions testing should basically put this argument to bed once and for all, any juice that passes basically negates this study - and surely some juice manufacturers have already managed to get juices passed?