Colonelboom
Vendor
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,609
It appears that way. I started typing in it to check and it was open
Stroud Vaping
Postman
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2013
- Messages
- 715
There's two ends of a stick - I got the sticky end.
Empvap
Postman
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2012
- Messages
- 212
Can I clarify the actual reason for this thread ?
If vendors choose not to place something directly on their websites, say for example that they prefer to continue to use other mediums such as facebook or twitter to have a much more intimate dialogue with their customers and to help them tread through the murky politics that changes almost daily, what then ?
Are vendors who do not place something on their websites to be blacklisted ?
Are customers of those vendors to be blacklisted ?
Or if vendors say the right thing...does it stop there ? Do you want them to prove they actually mean what they say ? Would you wish copies of any correspondence to MPs, MEPs to prove they are telling the truth ? What about bank statements to prove they are not funding the "opposition" or purchasing goods from those who may be aligned to TVECA ?
Would you require forum members to prove that they are not purchasing from vendors who appear unwilling or otherwise to produce enough proof to satisfy you ?
Personally, Emporium Vapour posts, on our customers' preferred medium, far more articles about electronic cigarettes and the various machinations, good and bad, than about our products. We take pride in offering that information to a customer base who do not, in the majority, venture on to forums or indeed our website. We write the letters, but do not feel compelled to seek the approval of our peers by advertising that fact on forums.
Similarly we supply goods throughout the UK to individuals and companies. Should we refuse to do so unless they are able to demonstrate a good understanding of the current situation and be able to provide proof of their stance on Article 18 ?
We tend to consider that the sledgehammer has never been a good educational tool.
I would prefer to work with people gently and respectfully over a period of time rather than alienate them by forcing them to "take sides". The reality is that there are many thousands of vaping individuals and a large amount of electronic cigarette companies currently operating out there at the moment, who do not give a minutes consideration to the TPD or Article 18. They do not post on forums. They do not want the leaflets and they do not wish to discuss what may happen. They live in the moment and not much further ahead.
In the rarefied atmosphere of forums, it may seem like the right thing to do to; to suggest that the masses are suspicious, that they are baying for the blood of truth. The reality is quite far from that.
There is no witch hunt required. But if it is deemed that there is, please remove me from this forum.
If vendors choose not to place something directly on their websites, say for example that they prefer to continue to use other mediums such as facebook or twitter to have a much more intimate dialogue with their customers and to help them tread through the murky politics that changes almost daily, what then ?
Are vendors who do not place something on their websites to be blacklisted ?
Are customers of those vendors to be blacklisted ?
Or if vendors say the right thing...does it stop there ? Do you want them to prove they actually mean what they say ? Would you wish copies of any correspondence to MPs, MEPs to prove they are telling the truth ? What about bank statements to prove they are not funding the "opposition" or purchasing goods from those who may be aligned to TVECA ?
Would you require forum members to prove that they are not purchasing from vendors who appear unwilling or otherwise to produce enough proof to satisfy you ?
Personally, Emporium Vapour posts, on our customers' preferred medium, far more articles about electronic cigarettes and the various machinations, good and bad, than about our products. We take pride in offering that information to a customer base who do not, in the majority, venture on to forums or indeed our website. We write the letters, but do not feel compelled to seek the approval of our peers by advertising that fact on forums.
Similarly we supply goods throughout the UK to individuals and companies. Should we refuse to do so unless they are able to demonstrate a good understanding of the current situation and be able to provide proof of their stance on Article 18 ?
We tend to consider that the sledgehammer has never been a good educational tool.
I would prefer to work with people gently and respectfully over a period of time rather than alienate them by forcing them to "take sides". The reality is that there are many thousands of vaping individuals and a large amount of electronic cigarette companies currently operating out there at the moment, who do not give a minutes consideration to the TPD or Article 18. They do not post on forums. They do not want the leaflets and they do not wish to discuss what may happen. They live in the moment and not much further ahead.
In the rarefied atmosphere of forums, it may seem like the right thing to do to; to suggest that the masses are suspicious, that they are baying for the blood of truth. The reality is quite far from that.
There is no witch hunt required. But if it is deemed that there is, please remove me from this forum.
K
KulrMeStoopid
Guest
As stated in the OP by myself. "Been in talks with quite a few people who are curious as to indivual vendors stance on the TPD and Article 18."
Speaking with OTHER vapers off of this website, out in the webosphere, as me myself and I and not the forum goddess people think I am
, totally unrelated to POTV too...other vapers from where ever in the world they are, were curious as to what individual VENDORS stances were on the TPD and many stated that their favourite vendors sites, didn't really have any info on the TPD or where they stood about it. It was suggested that vendors be asked to make an official statement for their company, so VAPERS knew where their VENDORS stood.POTV is not asking Vendors to do this. I did, thanks to discussions with OTHER vapers. So whatever happens then happens I suppose?
Blacklisted by who and for what? All I did was make a post about being in talks with other vapers who, because of the TVECA letter, became curious as to what OTHER vendors had to say.
Im not sure where you are going with this? Who is going to blacklist who? Not POTV as this was a thread made by ME after discussing with other vapers, off site.
Ok I get it now. You are assuming this is something POTV is asking of vendors to assert some kind of possible decision as to who we will and will not allow on the forum? It's not and its a bit far reaching to think that myself or anyone else helping run the forum have THAT kind of time to monitor and pick through all the vendors based on how they feel about the TPD. I certainly don't and I wouldnt dream of removing a vendor from the forum for supporting this legislation. To each their own and all that. I was only making a suggestion as a person (NOT POTV) that was raised by OTHER vapers elsewhere.
What are you talking about? I really really REALLY think you went way overboard here. The OP, by ME, is NOT a request by POTV, last I checked, I just help run a forum, I am a vaper and invloved in many other discussions all over the internet (not just here on POTV) and my OP was relaying the feelings and concerns I was seeing elsewhere.
Ooook... its pretty obvious that this got taken WAY out of context... Let me say this
THIS THREAD is not a request, demand, or a suggestion from POTV, it's a thread raising a subject that I (me myself and I, a vaper, not a business owner or employee of any ecig vendor or company or even playing "admin/mod" for POTV) found on various other social networking sites, to be a concern with vapers not just in the UK/EU but in the states as well. I suggested that Vendors make a statement on their stance on the TPD... What they do with that suggestion has absolutely NO concern what so ever with POTV as a forum or a website.
Now Breathe
And I'll be dead honest with ya, I have given more than my fair share of time to this website, I have NO OTHER TIME to add a dedicated "Witch Hunt" team to the mix. I am allowed to have an opinion regardless of my "MOD" tag. I am still a regular person/vaper once you take that tag away, end of.
Empvap
Postman
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2012
- Messages
- 212
Taking that premise silentoz, all vendors who do not sell the constituents of e-liquid are for Article 18 and those who do sell them, rather like yourself, are against it.
Freedom of choice and Freedom to mix, are important to many people. However there are also hundreds of thousands of people who use electronic cigarettes who have no interest in understanding or even simply taking a few minutes to read or refer themselves to videos and chats regarding the topic.
On a typical day in any of our stores, with an average of 100 or so customers visiting us per store. I can truly say that you would be lucky if one person demonstrates the least bit of interest in the TPD. And it will certainly not be from want of trying to enlighten.
If you care to extrapolate that number by 4 shops, over a week and tell me what I should do that when in any given week there is not a single person who shows an interest in obtaining their own nicotine and flavourings to mix their own liquid. I would certainly require such figures to be taken over a month at least, to get any minute percentage of interest in self mixing.
I would never castigate them or refuse them a product that can change their life because they do not have that interest.
I would not force people who live busy lives whether they be employed in offices, hospitals, by local government, local shops or factories, to make their own liquids because I understand that transitioning from a product that only required a simple process of taking a cigarette from a packet and setting fire to it, was a big step. Being able to pop into a shop and pick up a pre-made liquid, picking up new tanks or parts of tanks is enough of a change for them.
I would not encourage carers who pop in for "top ups" for their clients, to mix, nor indeed their clients, many of whom have physical, mental health or both, needs, that require support through the day. They are the lucky ones who have carers willing to either collect items or bring clients to a shop. For some, finding a product that they can actually operate by themselves is the biggest achievement for them.
As a business person, if customers were wanting to prepare their own liquids, it would make economic sense to provide that service to them. It would have saved 10's of thousands of pounds in infrastructure and would continue to do so. With a business that provides employment to about 20 people, we could almost cut that in half if all we provided were the base constituents. We are the people who spend thousands of pounds each month on concentrates. Many more thousands on nicotine, preferring not to purchase the cheapest but the best we can find. Similarly with glycerin's. Similarly on protective clothing, labeling, testing. I could go on and on.
In truth what is more likely to happen, is that a customer will bring along a flavour they have purchased elsewhere and ask us to replicate it. Or they will simply have thought about a flavour they would like and we make it for them. Should we tell them to go make it themselves ?
We are, on a daily basis, introducing people to an alternative to smoking. We try to do that in the simplest way possible for them. We aim to reduce the stress and fear. We aim to support them on a long term basis and indeed have customers who have been coming to us for years. Regardless if a tiny tiny percentage have moved on to products or liquids that we do not sell, they will still return to chat or for advice.
The reality is that we spam our facebook page with every new event or article we can find. POTV is a great source of news and we pass it on to our customers. If we look closely though at likes and comments, those articles do not attract as much attention as a photograph of a product, of a shop, of a customer winning a competition. And above that they do not attract the hits that a simple notification message regarding changes to opening times or something similar. That does not lead us to change the spamming of articles and updates on the TDP. On the latest news or information. We continue to do this because we believe people should try and become interested. But we cannot enforce interest.
It is very naive to suggest that vendors who only sell pre-mix are pro Article 18, As stated in the previous post, there are many of them who would not even know what Article 18 is.
You are free to boycott them, however you are not even in their field of vision and would have no impact upon them.
For those of us who do take an interest. Who have offered support, but do not shout about it, who actually have ingested the current issues, I would prefer that you do not make sweeping assumptions. Already, on another forum, a well established and keen supporter of the fight against TDP's efforts to destroy the availability of electronic cigarettes, liquids and flavourings has been taken out to the firing squad.
Freedom of choice and Freedom to mix, are important to many people. However there are also hundreds of thousands of people who use electronic cigarettes who have no interest in understanding or even simply taking a few minutes to read or refer themselves to videos and chats regarding the topic.
On a typical day in any of our stores, with an average of 100 or so customers visiting us per store. I can truly say that you would be lucky if one person demonstrates the least bit of interest in the TPD. And it will certainly not be from want of trying to enlighten.
If you care to extrapolate that number by 4 shops, over a week and tell me what I should do that when in any given week there is not a single person who shows an interest in obtaining their own nicotine and flavourings to mix their own liquid. I would certainly require such figures to be taken over a month at least, to get any minute percentage of interest in self mixing.
I would never castigate them or refuse them a product that can change their life because they do not have that interest.
I would not force people who live busy lives whether they be employed in offices, hospitals, by local government, local shops or factories, to make their own liquids because I understand that transitioning from a product that only required a simple process of taking a cigarette from a packet and setting fire to it, was a big step. Being able to pop into a shop and pick up a pre-made liquid, picking up new tanks or parts of tanks is enough of a change for them.
I would not encourage carers who pop in for "top ups" for their clients, to mix, nor indeed their clients, many of whom have physical, mental health or both, needs, that require support through the day. They are the lucky ones who have carers willing to either collect items or bring clients to a shop. For some, finding a product that they can actually operate by themselves is the biggest achievement for them.
As a business person, if customers were wanting to prepare their own liquids, it would make economic sense to provide that service to them. It would have saved 10's of thousands of pounds in infrastructure and would continue to do so. With a business that provides employment to about 20 people, we could almost cut that in half if all we provided were the base constituents. We are the people who spend thousands of pounds each month on concentrates. Many more thousands on nicotine, preferring not to purchase the cheapest but the best we can find. Similarly with glycerin's. Similarly on protective clothing, labeling, testing. I could go on and on.
In truth what is more likely to happen, is that a customer will bring along a flavour they have purchased elsewhere and ask us to replicate it. Or they will simply have thought about a flavour they would like and we make it for them. Should we tell them to go make it themselves ?
We are, on a daily basis, introducing people to an alternative to smoking. We try to do that in the simplest way possible for them. We aim to reduce the stress and fear. We aim to support them on a long term basis and indeed have customers who have been coming to us for years. Regardless if a tiny tiny percentage have moved on to products or liquids that we do not sell, they will still return to chat or for advice.
The reality is that we spam our facebook page with every new event or article we can find. POTV is a great source of news and we pass it on to our customers. If we look closely though at likes and comments, those articles do not attract as much attention as a photograph of a product, of a shop, of a customer winning a competition. And above that they do not attract the hits that a simple notification message regarding changes to opening times or something similar. That does not lead us to change the spamming of articles and updates on the TDP. On the latest news or information. We continue to do this because we believe people should try and become interested. But we cannot enforce interest.
It is very naive to suggest that vendors who only sell pre-mix are pro Article 18, As stated in the previous post, there are many of them who would not even know what Article 18 is.
You are free to boycott them, however you are not even in their field of vision and would have no impact upon them.
For those of us who do take an interest. Who have offered support, but do not shout about it, who actually have ingested the current issues, I would prefer that you do not make sweeping assumptions. Already, on another forum, a well established and keen supporter of the fight against TDP's efforts to destroy the availability of electronic cigarettes, liquids and flavourings has been taken out to the firing squad.
Colonelboom
Vendor
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,609
If you are meaning John at FAUK, my understanding is that the majority of people (myself included) are in support of John and his business which has been left in a difficult position courtesy of the actions and views of his direct supplier. It is understandable that consumers who are fighting for their rights and life may vote with their feet and not help to fund an organisation that is seeking to end the thing we are fighting for, it is incredibly difficult that someone who is as well regarded as John is put in this position wholly by a supplier because not only does it affect his business but also the very principles that he holds dear and fights to protect.
The OP post asking which vendors are denouncing the TVEC stance is quite clear to me, a show of hands from vendors who do NOT agree with their statement - claiming to represent 80% of E.U vaping businesses as the whole thing is coming across as though vendors on the whole are happy to compromise in order to keep trading whatever scraps we are allowed to - rather than pushing for a fair and proportionate regulation that we (consumers and vendors) have been fighting for this whole time.
Personally speaking, I have no problem issuing a statement that confirms I do not support TVEC, their views and ideology are contrary to mine as a person and as a business.
Empvap
Postman
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2012
- Messages
- 212
Neither do I but people are missing the point.
TVECA have made a broad sweeping statement which does not sit well. They have made that statement regardless of the veracity of it.
Likewise anybody can say anything, post anything. It does not mean that it is the truth. How do you actually know ? Who is going to decide how you can tell if someone is aligned to TVECA or not ? What are you going to do with that information ?
Are you going to search all electronic cigarette sites and check who has posted and who has not ? What then ? A black list ? Publicly publish, name and shame ? If the desired effect is to safeguard those businesses from losing trade because they may or may not be guilty of something they may or may not actually know about then what does that actually achieve ? If the desired effect is to ensure that electronic cigarette consumers are aware of the salient points of the TDP and all the forces surrounding it then this is a huge fail.
I will say again that there are hundreds of e-cig businesses out there that do not know or do not really care about the TDP. Many of them do not even have websites.There are hundreds of thousands of e-cig consumers who have no idea of the current issues. How do you reach them ? How do you inform without alienating them ? There is a vast untapped public who do have the power to change things as a group. If we truly want to be responsible and active participants in this issue we need to stop thinking about covering our own backs and look at the wider picture.
I simply do not see the efficacy of making proclamations on a website when the majority of UK purchasers do not use these websites. Those that need the information are not to be found there. They are on e-bay, at their local market, corner shop, supermarket.........
It is very easy to print a few words and sit back looking smug at such a great accomplishment. It is another thing to actually make a difference.
As with http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/149-tpd-errors, vendors should be banding together to write to the TDP to ensure they are aware that TVECA is not the consensus. I think a letter with a large number of signatures would make much more impact and demonstrate that vendors are actually working together.
TVECA have made a broad sweeping statement which does not sit well. They have made that statement regardless of the veracity of it.
Likewise anybody can say anything, post anything. It does not mean that it is the truth. How do you actually know ? Who is going to decide how you can tell if someone is aligned to TVECA or not ? What are you going to do with that information ?
Are you going to search all electronic cigarette sites and check who has posted and who has not ? What then ? A black list ? Publicly publish, name and shame ? If the desired effect is to safeguard those businesses from losing trade because they may or may not be guilty of something they may or may not actually know about then what does that actually achieve ? If the desired effect is to ensure that electronic cigarette consumers are aware of the salient points of the TDP and all the forces surrounding it then this is a huge fail.
I will say again that there are hundreds of e-cig businesses out there that do not know or do not really care about the TDP. Many of them do not even have websites.There are hundreds of thousands of e-cig consumers who have no idea of the current issues. How do you reach them ? How do you inform without alienating them ? There is a vast untapped public who do have the power to change things as a group. If we truly want to be responsible and active participants in this issue we need to stop thinking about covering our own backs and look at the wider picture.
I simply do not see the efficacy of making proclamations on a website when the majority of UK purchasers do not use these websites. Those that need the information are not to be found there. They are on e-bay, at their local market, corner shop, supermarket.........
It is very easy to print a few words and sit back looking smug at such a great accomplishment. It is another thing to actually make a difference.
As with http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/149-tpd-errors, vendors should be banding together to write to the TDP to ensure they are aware that TVECA is not the consensus. I think a letter with a large number of signatures would make much more impact and demonstrate that vendors are actually working together.
Colonelboom
Vendor
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,609
Well for one it may make these businesses look at their association with TVECA (whom they previously thought perhaps to be on their side and working for them) and denounce their ties - if their membership were unaware and publicy post they had no knowledge or agreement it weakens their stance entirely and the claim they speak for 80% of Ecig vendors in the EU.
Well, speaking as a web only business I can only contradict this and say that my customers DO view the statements displayed on my website alongside other news. The proclamation made on here by PlumeBlu is just a link to the proclamation made on my trading website in a prominent position for customers to read if they wish - if it is NOT there they how are they to know?
Not entirely, doing nothing makes no difference. We should all be doing what we can on the platforms we are using, if your trade comes from your shops and not website then you have the approach which works for you - however - the majority of vendors on here that have posted a show of no support are web only and as such their platform is web based, an ideal place to put such statements.
You may be forgetting the power that an article on a website can have in the bigger picture as search engines, news aggregators and statistic miners pick things like this up to compile for much wider audiences than a lowly vendor website.
I wholeheartedly agree and that was the gist of my comment regarding the joint declaration of the ecigarette industry. It was only a fraction of the vendors who want their voices to be heard, if the ecig industry is made up of only those 30 odd 'important' brands we smaller businesses need to do what we can, where we can to show support. As it happens now we have had the form opened up to additional signatories (thanks guys) so all of us should sign it IF it is a cause we believe in.
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