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"... there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.

There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know.

But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know."

(Donald Henry Rumsfeld)

I'm off for a glass of wine because I know that's bad for me. I have enough trouble worrying about the things that I do that I know are bad for me, without worrying about the things that I know about might be bad for me.

I try not to think about all the things that I don't know about, that might be bad for me - it's very bad for my health :lol1:
 
There's nothing moot about it. The coils emit particles as you pulse them... whenever you make them glow... and (to a lesser degree) whenever they are heated... so the moot point is actually the duration of use. Unless you quit vaping, ofc. Just because you switch a coil out after an hour's use doesn't mean you're not inhaling particles.

Though the act of drinking coffee (ingesting) has been around for a while, the act of inhaling it hasn't... and the effects on the body are completely different. Expand that concept to include stainless steel, copper, plastics, nichrome etc etc... and the liquids... and the liquids in combination with the non-liquids...

Make sense?

no .. simple put the results and tests made have shown that the particles that are released are of a size as not to be relevant ( either to small in the vaper or to large through the juice ( such as wicking material ) this has been extensively researched.

as for inhaling coffee.. well i was actually referring to the cup you use as i stated and not the actual coffee. you could also argue about contanimants form drinking from coca cola cans , bottles water in hot drinks ( the elements in a kettle ) . oh and Copper does not come into contact with liquids. you may get a copper mod or mech but due to coppers properties you wont find a copper atty or tank due to the high risks.

your argument also about inhaling doesnt stand up when you quote just because you switch a coil off after an hour your inhaling particles.. how exactly?
you only inahling when you take a vape.. or are you referring to the billions and billions of particles we inhale every day in the air around us. ( carbon monoxide fumes from cars for instance ?)

we drink hot liquids from plastic cups , china cups, metal cups.. we inhale those liquids to a point . medical inhalers for asthma.. made from metals that are just as much at risk of particle inhalation.

they say there are more germs on a food chopping board than there is in your toilet.
it cold well be in fact the case that by heating heatings you burn off certain elements and ae actually inhaling a vaper thats cleaner and freer of toxins than the air we breathe naturally
 
Phantom Diablo


Thanks for engaging :D


Would you link me to the 'extensive research' that shows particle composition and size caused by thermal decomposition of wicks/coils etc in vaping equipment, please? Also that such particles are 'not relevant' in terms of lung inhalation, or health generally? I ask because I haven't seen it.


Just to be clear... there are three spheres involved here... the hardware (wick, coil, tank and tank deck, posts, screws (for example) - all of which can be made of different materials and different combinations of materials)... the liquids... and the hardware and liquids combined.


All of the above are capable of generating substances and particles within a violent and reactive environment that can then be inhaled... and about which little, if anything, is known in relation to inhalation to the lung.


Perhaps you are confusing particle size in relation to nicotine molecule absorbtion through different physical membranes (skin/mouth/throat/lung, for example) and thus into the blood plasma and thence to the noncepad.


If so, then to be specific... I am referring to particulate matter stemming from the thermal decomposition of coil/tank materials... not nicotine molecules, or molecules from any other liquids (except where they may have reacted with other substances).


In the case of these materials, there are no particles too small or too large to not cause a problem with either lung tissue directly or absorbtion into the blood stream via the lung.


Put simply... all materials deposited into the lung, whatever their particulate size, have the potential to cause a health problem. Otherwise we'd not need to cough or avoid breathing asbestos.


The particles released from your coil do not disappear just because you don't happen to be inhaling the device at the time they are released... by which I mean, when you are pulsing your newly-built coil, or dry-burning it for whatever reason (for example), the coil is degenerating and particles are being released.


These particles don't all get magically-transported to Oz just because you don't happen to be inhaling at the time. In some instances, for example, particles from the coil may be deposited on your wick, or tank head.


Couple this with the fact that under real-life conditions, most vapers ARE actually inhaling from the device as the coils are being heated and in contact with a variety (not many) of liquids... and that sometimes the liquids or wick materials are burned, say... also creating particles which are not on the e-liquid ingredient list and about which little is known in terms of long-term inhalation exposure.


"it cold well be in fact the case that by heating heatings you burn off certain elements and ae actually inhaling a vaper thats cleaner and freer of toxins than the air we breathe naturally"


What?? Seriously? Burn off? As in destroy and make pure? Materials change through reaction, but they don't disappear from existence in a puff of unsmoke unless you live in Narnia. Atoms in the real universe are not destroyed except in extremis, otherwise there would be a lot more - and noticeably large - explosions about. My coils pop and splutter... they don't go kaboom.


Besides, you seem to be misunderstanding me. I am not arguing for panic or fear here, nor am I personally concerned or wish anyone else to become concerned. I have consistently said e-cigs are 'safe enough.'


I was merely illustrating that the word 'safe' alone was too definite and strong a claim... and sought to do so by drawing attention to the unknown factors related to vaping, is all.

When you say "you wont find a copper atty or tank due to the high risks" which risks do you refer to?
 
ive already posted a thread with the details relating to particles and extensive tests that have been carried out and researched by several professional bodies here when there was some concern over the use and type of silica ( glass v synthetic ) and the resulting issues over silicosis.
as for living in Narnia. a known scientific fact that when certain chemicals or elements are formed it can create a chemical reaction. this does not neccesarily mean a negative reaction and a certain chemical elements can be burned away to produce "clean air"
you seem to be misquoting and misinterpreting what i say when i said clean air.. i clearly stated in comparison to the every day air we breathe in our lungs out in the real world.

as for copper. do the research and you will find a ton of articles in the vaping world relating to copper and chemical reactions with heat and liquid which is why there are NO copper components in ANY part of an atomizer or dripper.
 
@Phantom Diablo


Thanks for engaging :D


Would you link me to the 'extensive research' that shows particle composition and size caused by thermal decomposition of wicks/coils etc in vaping equipment, please? Also that such particles are 'not relevant' in terms of lung inhalation, or health generally? I ask because I haven't seen it.


Just to be clear... there are three spheres involved here... the hardware (wick, coil, tank and tank deck, posts, screws (for example) - all of which can be made of different materials and different combinations of materials)... the liquids... and the hardware and liquids combined.


All of the above are capable of generating substances and particles within a violent and reactive environment that can then be inhaled... and about which little, if anything, is known in relation to inhalation to the lung.


Perhaps you are confusing particle size in relation to nicotine molecule absorbtion through different physical membranes (skin/mouth/throat/lung, for example) and thus into the blood plasma and thence to the noncepad.


If so, then to be specific... I am referring to particulate matter stemming from the thermal decomposition of coil/tank materials... not nicotine molecules, or molecules from any other liquids (except where they may have reacted with other substances).


In the case of these materials, there are no particles too small or too large to not cause a problem with either lung tissue directly or absorbtion into the blood stream via the lung.


Put simply... all materials deposited into the lung, whatever their particulate size, have the potential to cause a health problem. Otherwise we'd not need to cough or avoid breathing asbestos.


The particles released from your coil do not disappear just because you don't happen to be inhaling the device at the time they are released... by which I mean, when you are pulsing your newly-built coil, or dry-burning it for whatever reason (for example), the coil is degenerating and particles are being released.


These particles don't all get magically-transported to Oz just because you don't happen to be inhaling at the time. In some instances, for example, particles from the coil may be deposited on your wick, or tank head.


Couple this with the fact that under real-life conditions, most vapers ARE actually inhaling from the device as the coils are being heated and in contact with a variety (not many) of liquids... and that sometimes the liquids or wick materials are burned, say... also creating particles which are not on the e-liquid ingredient list and about which little is known in terms of long-term inhalation exposure.


"it cold well be in fact the case that by heating heatings you burn off certain elements and ae actually inhaling a vaper thats cleaner and freer of toxins than the air we breathe naturally"


What?? Seriously? Burn off? As in destroy and make pure? Materials change through reaction, but they don't disappear from existence in a puff of unsmoke unless you live in Narnia. Atoms in the real universe are not destroyed except in extremis, otherwise there would be a lot more - and noticeably large - explosions about. My coils pop and splutter... they don't go kaboom.


Besides, you seem to be misunderstanding me. I am not arguing for panic or fear here, nor am I personally concerned or wish anyone else to become concerned. I have consistently said e-cigs are 'safe enough.'


I was merely illustrating that the word 'safe' alone was too definite and strong a claim... and sought to do so by drawing attention to the unknown factors related to vaping, is all.

When you say "you wont find a copper atty or tank due to the high risks" which risks do you refer to?

Please dont think I am being rude, but I really have not read the whole post. To me personally, I used to smoke, approx 40 roll ups a day, and was aware of all the poisons, and carcinogens in them, but I still chose to take that risk.

I then woke up one day and felt I wanted to quit tobacco, and hence I became a vaper. Now I have read report after report on vaping and is it doing me any harm, and whilst up to now, they all say pretty much the same thing, I am prepared to take the risk and put my trust in those manufacturers that I purchase from.

Today, I was in Dudley, and a market in the square was selling juice 'bargain bucket' for £2 per 10ml, but I didnt buy any, as I just didnt trust it.

To me vaping isnt 100% safer than smoking, but if using my gut instinct, coupled with basic principles of science, I would settle for 1% safer, though I suspect its 99% safer.

Quite ironic that we are having this discussion and debate, when none of us cared about the chemicals we put into our bodies whilst smoking!
 
@SerialKiller

Noncepad. The brain. It was an accident :D
AndyC1971

As I said... I have no concerns either... e-cigs are safe enough.
Phantom Diablo

Link to thread please. Thanks. Assuming the thread contains links to research. If not, links to research please. You cannot make claims for 'extensive research' and be unable to back it up. I ask because Dr Farsilinos told me directly that such research was virtually non-existent... and that regulatory requirements based on thermal degeneration data and trials would be 'impossible' to comply with. So I am, in all sincerity, interested in where you got your information from.

I'm unsure whether you are deliberately being obtuse but I'll try again, assuming that you're not. Please read what I'm saying. I spent entire sentences explaining chemical reactions, the results of which - via inhalation to the lung - are mostly unknown. Now you seem to be agreeing. Ich bin confused.

As for copper, I am well aware of the risks involved... which stem from decomposition in exposure and reaction to other elements... which is why I asked you... to make a point. Geddit?
 
sorry but i also dont mean to be rude...had a quick flick through the thread and im not in a war on peace kind of mood but as per the title...how do we think jim gets the red lady so deep and red, same with crystal menth?....some juices colour up while steeping, some due to just natural light.

very valid point that andy made, re we all new the risks while smoking but did it anyway

but i am curious to know what a couple of vendors use...vaping king and kraken being just two :)
 
no im not agreeing, i clearly stated that any particles were of a level that was admissiable as harmful being to small or to large. and just because one doctor among the population f the world isnt aware of such reasearch doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
i would suggest using forum search for silica to find the thread and the articles and links as im not in the habit of doing other peoples work for them
have a good night
 
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