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OK - here I go again! I got another reply from the assistant to Mary Honeyball MEP:



Of course, I spent the next four hours formulating a reply (twenty minutes to draft it, and three and a half buggering about with it!). Here it is...



Still can't help but feel I'm pissing in the wind though! As an aside, I sat down and worked out, at a very basic level, the comparison of nicotine yield in an average fag and nicotine absorbed when vaping. I've got to say, the results were grim and not particularly good news for us filthy vapers! It was a bloody brain-ache too! My missus couldn't understand it, and she's an experienced research nurse!

Sorry for the length of this post - but after all the swearing and cursing, I just had to share!!!! AND it's another excuse to say what I want via the genius pen of Lionel Shriver!

@Ethelkng, I don't think it's reasonable to compare the nicotine in one cigarette with that in 1 ml of eliquid because you can smoke a cigarette in 5 minutes but I defy anybody to vape 1 ml in the same time.
I compared the nicotine in a pack of 20 regular strength ciggies (20 mg) but didn't allow for the fact that far more nicotine is absorbed through smoking.
That would mean 20mg/ml would be the equivalent. I used to smoke 40 a day and now I use 2 ml of 18 mg most days.
I also saw an estimate that 1 ml of 18 mg juice was equivalent to 12 cigarettes if you took absorption into account.

And one of my MEPs is asking a question about the 'dangerous proppylene glycol in some ecigs"
I want a 'smiley' for 'DOH!!!
 
And a response from mine

Thank you for your email to Chris Davies MEP regarding Electronic Cigarettes and the proposed Tobacco Products Directive.* Chris has asked me to reply to you.

*

Since we are right at the beginning of the process of legislation, Chris and his colleagues are still examining the Commission’s proposals and are yet to hear from “stakeholders” such as E-cigarette manufacturers, the NHS or the scientific advice. *He is of course always pleased to hear from constituents, who can give a better idea of how the proposals would affect their lives. Many former smokers and soon-to-be-former smokers have also been in touch regarding how much E-cigs have helped them firstly cut down on cigarettes, and then gradually reduce the nicotine they have the addiction to. *

*

Health-wise, something that may stop smokers from inhaling the tar and tobacco that is so damaging to the lungs is clearly a good thing, however there have been some concerns expressed regarding the lack of research into the long-term effects of vaping.* Chris is not sure of what that scientific case consists of just yet, so is waiting to hear from the experts.

*

The other concern is regarding the different flavours of liquid – the implication from some has been that they would attract young people.* Chris thinks there needs to be a distinction between those liquids that contain nicotine and those that do not firstly – regulating something with no drug in it would be rather silly.* Regarding how attractive vaping and the different flavours are to kids, I think he wants to hear from the experts – certainly it could be argued that alcopops (the comparison that has been made) have acted in a similar way for alcohol, although clearly banning alcopops would never even be considered.

*

Chris does intend to consult colleagues and put down some amendments on these two issues in particular, so I hope we can update you on the plans more soon.* The process will take a number of months however and has a lot of stages to go through before the final vote, so there is no need to panic just yet.* The proposals may be quite different by the time they reach the final vote.

*

I hope this email has been informative.* Do get in touch if there is anything else you would like clarifying.

*

Kind regards,

*

Kat Dadswell | Casework Assistant

Office of Chris Davies MEP

North West Liberal Democrats

87a Castle Street

Stockport

United Kingdom SK3 9AR
 
Interesting that I received an email almost exact to yours from a completely different person Ethelking


Many thanks for writing to me about the important issue of the EU Tobacco
Products Directive, and how it will affect electronic cigarettes.

Because e-cigarettes are a relatively new product they are regulated
differently in each EU country. Some countries allow e-cigarettes to be
sold without any regulation at all. Others have banned the sale of
e-cigarettes. As the UK is part of the EU's internal market it is important
that we harmonise the way we deal with this product, otherwise consumers
could be buying unregulated products which do not conform to basic safety
standards, either within their own country, or by easily purchasing it over
the internet from a neighbouring country.

The European Commission has proposed that all 'nicotine containing products'
with more than 2mg per unit should not be classed as tobacco products.
Instead, under the Commission's proposals, nearly all e-cigarettes will need
to get authorisation as a pharmaceutical product, in the same way as
nicotine patches, sprays and gums.

Of course there is a balance to strike. On one hand e-cigarettes have the
potential to be a helpful way to help somebody quit smoking entirely and
greatly improve their health. On the other hand e-cigarettes currently can
contain up to 48mg of nicotine - far more than a regular cigarette, making
them highly addictive. As nicotine is the drug that makes cigarettes
addictive, somebody that tries e-cigarettes could be much more likely to go
on to smoke regular cigarettes. Furthermore, there is no evidence that
e-cigarettes are safe, and it is concerning that they are being marketed as
a 'healthy' alternative to smoking.
Currently we do not have any conclusive evidence either that e-cigarettes
are helpful for giving up smoking, or that they encourage it.

While we do not have this scientific evidence to rely on I think it is
wise to have a cautious approach to e-cigarettes. If they are
effective in helping people to stop smoking, then it is appropriate that
they are regulated in the same way as other smoking cessation tools, such as
nicotine patches.

The Commission proposal is not final and there will be many months of
negotiations by the European Parliament, as well as health ministers from
the UK and other EU countries, before the legislation is agreed.
During this time Labour MEPs will be looking carefully at all of the
measures and trying to find the best way to ensure that we effectively
reduce smoking rates in the UK and across Europe.

Thanks again for writing to me on this important issue.

Best wishes

Brian
 
"If they are effective in helping people to stop smoking, then it is appropriate that
they are regulated in the same way as other smoking cessation tools, such as nicotine patches"

*face palms*
 
Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association (ECITA) - "French Study Shows Significant Health Improvements For Smokers Using Electronic Cigarettes" http://www.ecita.org.uk/blog/?p=382

Acute effects of using an electronic nicotine-delivery device (e-cigarette) on myocardial function: comparison with the effects of regular cigarettes http://www.escardio.org/about/press...nts/presentations/konstantinos-farsalinos.pdf

Indoor Air Quality http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/08958378.2012.724728

Effects on desire to smoke, withdrawal symptoms and cognition http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306460312000913

The Guardian - "No Smoke Without Ire" http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/05/e-cigarettes-tobacco-harmless-enjoyable

TIME - Business & Money - "Can electronic Cigarettes Challenge Big Tobacco http://business.time.com/2013/01/08/can-electronic-cigarettes-challenge-big-tobacco/


These are the studies and storied I reply with in my return emails.
 
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Mark - I have been working things out - probably completely cock-eyed! Using my understanding that we absorb between 40-65% of the nicotine in vapour, the division and multiplication comes up with consistently high results. However, assuming that it is the same "uptake" as cigarette smoking, it is only 10% - a fag contains up to 10mg of nicotine individually, but the nicotine yield is only 1mg, or 10%!

Strike "grim" from the record, and look forward to something better (not that it makes a blind bit of difference to anything, but it makes me feel a bit better!). :worship:
 
These are the studies and storied I reply with in my return emails.

Great minds!

Of all the articles there are, those have got to be some of the stronger ones to point out a few things from technical and personal perspectives. It's just a shame that they will be falling upon ears that regard us as smokers, and seem to feel some compulsion to stop us becoming addicted to nicotine, regardless of the fact that we already were before we chose the "e-cigarette" (a term which makes my tish itch!) as a safer alternative to smoking with all the other crap and carcinogens it delivers in addition to the nicotine.

I've done my bit now - and so to sleep.
 
I don't think it's reasonable to compare the nicotine in one cigarette with that in 1 ml of eliquid because you can smoke a cigarette in 5 minutes but I defy anybody to vape 1 ml in the same time.
AnnaLaw. Sorry Anna, not only is it reasonable, it is entirely proper. The way I worked it out originally made me a 50 a day smoker! By assuming the take up of nicotine from vapour is the same as it is for cigarette smoke, rather than by different absorption percentages, as I did originally, it starts looking a lot better.

The amount of nicotine in e-liquids is measured in mg/ml - so in 1 ml of 18mg juice there is 18mg of nicotine. Assuming a vaper absorbs 10% of that nicotine, the nicotine yield from 1ml of 18mg/ml juice would be 1.8mg - the equivalent of just under two normal ciggies. Hence my "strike the grim from the record.

But I have just realised that by quoting the percentages to the MEP, I may have shot myself in the foot! OOPSS.
 
Ethelking, I was smoking 40 to 50 a day.
But seeing the stupid things these MEPs say, I just say that 1 ml of eliquid can't be compared tp 1 cigarette, that it would be a truer picture to compare to 20 as nobody polishes off a ml in 5 to 10 minutes.
I just found this link about nic absorption but as it's a video I've not watched it yet.


I really do try not to shoot myself in the foot but don't know if I always succeed. I usually spend hours writing every letter.
 
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I beg to differ... there was a kid, yes I call him a kid http://www.planetofthevapes.co.uk/forums/showthread.php/1314-The-Vape-Face-Collection Who HAD a video of him going through 5ml in just under 3 mins, he's since taken the video down though.


I am sure he wasn't doing it all the time, just for show, but it CAN be done.


However, I think the 1ml to 1-2cig thing is correct based on Lord Grims posting of Troggs calculation. At the higher nic I was at my 20+ ciggies a day and at the lower nic I am now at 15+



There is no possible way I am Oding on 1ml and anyone who goes through that in the amount of time it would take one to smoke a cig, either needs to up their nic mg or slow the heck down.
 
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