What's going on with the ELiquid Market?

[Chris K]

In for a rant so I'll apologise in advance, I need to vent.

What is going on with the ELiquid market? Recently we seem to have dropped into a rut of awful liquids hitting the market from both established and new manufacturers. I realise taste is subjective etc but only a year ago, I found more liquids I liked than ones I didn't, now to find a good liquid is like panning for gold, occasionally hit lucky, most of time it's crap.

I'm lucky (or unlucky maybe?) that with helping out at a vaping cafe and visiting distributors, I try dozens of different liquids a week and 99/100 times I'm hugely disappointed with the quality that's coming our way. Yes, admittedly, most of these are shortfills with some ridiculous IP theft marketing idea, never have high hopes for these but if I'd paid money for them, I'd be very bloody annoyed.

Example, sent some samples other day for a liquid called "Push Pops" that I've also seen at a distributor, thought I'd give them ago, basic fruit flavour, can't be that hard to get right surely? Wrong. Double apple where they forgot to even add one apple and despite having no flavour was still harsh at 3mg! Binned the bottle. I'll try the orange then, can't be as bad? Nope, bloody chemically artifical orange flavour that luckily only lasted about a second before... Nothing.

How can these people produce samples of these liquids, try them and think "Hmmm this is great, it will sell, let's offer it to the public!" Is it laziness? Greed? I just don't get it.

Do certain retailers hold some responsibility here? Most seem to focus more on the profit margin than selling a quality product and don't give a stuff if something is a blatent rip off of another product.

Anyways, sorry all, after been disappointed with nearly every liquid I've tried over last few days, I cracked!

Have a good evening everyone

 

[pocketsand]

Baffling given how easy it is.

Edit I haven't bought pre made "premium" juice in a year, I'd recommend anyone else do the same

 

[Ment]

I know just how you feel. When I started vaping, my guru advised me to get a mixing kit with my first setup and I discovered premixed juices after I was already mixing, and I expected great things from these "premium" juices.

How wrong I was, but I didn't learn the lessons and got shit loads of juices in the TPD sales, and as I work through them they're almost exclusively shit.

As my mixing skills improve and I discover good recipes I'm even less inclined to spend any more money on premixed stuff (with a few exceptions).

It's just profiteering, and the TPD has actually made it easy for con men to open and make a quick buck.

 

[Mr Ripple]

Vape Wizzard makes juice makers think stick this into anything and it will taste good.
Oh and then there are those new vapers that realise its only four different components and instantly think they can churn out juice.

 

[Phil M]

I know this is a separate issue but I’m amazed I see to be in the minority who think the prices are ridiculous, no choice but to make my own otherwise it ends up costing me not far short of smoking

 

[kirsteyj87]

I only buy concetrates or bottle shots [emoji23] if i bought premade or even shortfill juice it would cost me more than smoking as i was buying baccy off a friend that goes on holiday a lot [emoji87][emoji23]

 

[JustDave]

I think the shortfill market is at least partly responsible.

(Please note that I am not tarring everyone who makes them with the same brush here)

Since the regulations relating to nicotine containing liquids came into play, the old hands who have made quality liquids for many years have stepped back a little.

With the amount of research time, testing and refining, getting things perfect and then paying for testing and registration, it is understandable that their output has gone down. Where these guys offer shortfill options they are generally nic free versions of their tested recipes and as such are still good.

Some of the established makers have obviously seen their business drop and as such have jumped into the nic shot market with both feet, making a flavour that seems ok to them and matches the current trends (more on this later), then onto the market it goes.

Then there are the pure shortfill makers. As there is no required testing they can churn them out as quickly as they want and put them on sale. By the time people realise that they are not the greatest they can have another three flavours on the market or even a “different” branding that repeats the cycle. Again please note that I am not saying this is true of ALL manufacturers.

As an example, there is one brand based near me that is launching two or three new flavours every week, all shortfills. With that kind of output there is obviously no real testing of how the flavours work together, how they react to aging/steeping etc and given the cost/timescale of testing/regulation this is obviously not happening.

The other big thing is the high VG low nic cloudy trend. For some (not all) people who prefer this style, the clouds are far more important than the flavour, something the manufacturer is well aware of, so why would they try too hard to make a flavour that lasts or is anything better than ok?

I am pretty well known to be a MtL vaper and I think my experiences are pretty reflective of people who vape that way, something that I believe anyone who works in the shop environment @ChrisK @Huggett can back up. I have about 6-8 flavours that I keep going back to. My current ADV has been the same for around two years. I do try other things and have even got some juices that are high VG shortfills that I use occasionally when I feel like a change, but I go back to my regulars simply because I know they will be there when I want them. The same is simply not true of a lot of the shortfill market. If I go into a shop and find a flavour that I like, there is no guarantee that the same shop will have it again 3 months later. It seems that there is a constant rotation of available juices that change every visit. I realise that I am not typical of this market as I know a 100ml might only last a very short time in the subohm world but I think it is more reflective of the trend for cloudy vaping/sweet juices being more fatiguing and losing flavour more quickly.

TL;DR version.

Why would they bother when they are gonna sell loads regardless?

 

[zouzounaki]

I only buy concetrates or bottle shots [emoji23] if i bought premade or even shortfill juice it would cost me more than smoking as i was buying baccy off a friend that goes on holiday a lot [emoji87][emoji23]

Likewise, I was smoking organic tobacco that I bought by the kilo for about £30 and shredded it up myself. Smoking was almost free for me!

 

[MrTeaTime]

I think the shortfill market is at least partly responsible.

(Please note that I am not tarring everyone who makes them with the same brush here)

Since the regulations relating to nicotine containing liquids came into play, the old hands who have made quality liquids for many years have stepped back a little.

With the amount of research time, testing and refining, getting things perfect and then paying for testing and registration, it is understandable that their output has gone down. Where these guys offer shortfill options they are generally nic free versions of their tested recipes and as such are still good.

Some of the established makers have obviously seen their business drop and as such have jumped into the nic shot market with both feet, making a flavour that seems ok to them and matches the current trends (more on this later), then onto the market it goes.

Then there are the pure shortfill makers. As there is no required testing they can churn them out as quickly as they want and put them on sale. By the time people realise that they are not the greatest they can have another three flavours on the market or even a “different” branding that repeats the cycle. Again please note that I am not saying this is true of ALL manufacturers.

As an example, there is one brand based near me that is launching two or three new flavours every week, all shortfills. With that kind of output there is obviously no real testing of how the flavours work together, how they react to aging/steeping etc and given the cost/timescale of testing/regulation this is obviously not happening.

The other big thing is the high VG low nic cloudy trend. For some (not all) people who prefer this style, the clouds are far more important than the flavour, something the manufacturer is well aware of, so why would they try too hard to make a flavour that lasts or is anything better than ok?

I am pretty well known to be a MtL vaper and I think my experiences are pretty reflective of people who vape that way, something that I believe anyone who works in the shop environment @ChrisK @Huggett can back up. I have about 6-8 flavours that I keep going back to. My current ADV has been the same for around two years. I do try other things and have even got some juices that are high VG shortfills that I use occasionally when I feel like a change, but I go back to my regulars simply because I know they will be there when I want them. The same is simply not true of a lot of the shortfill market. If I go into a shop and find a flavour that I like, there is no guarantee that the same shop will have it again 3 months later. It seems that there is a constant rotation of available juices that change every visit. I realise that I am not typical of this market as I know a 100ml might only last a very short time in the subohm world but I think it is more reflective of the trend for cloudy vaping/sweet juices being more fatiguing and losing flavour more quickly.

TL;DR version.

Why would they bother when they are gonna sell loads regardless?

Some very fair comments there, and I would echo most if not all of your points Dave.

My own thoughts on this is the (de)regulation of the TPD. Now bear with me on this as I know that the TPD was supposed to regulate juice making and producing, but the opposite happened. For some (not all) the actual putting the juices through to be compliant was almost ruinous, and I would say that this might be more inclined to the sub ohm end if the market, where (myself included) would buy juice with a 60ml bottle as a minimum.

The TPD could have spelt the end of sub ohm vaping. There was no way in the world that I (and I know a good few others would agree) could ever have continued to vape the way we “prefer” to vape. A dripper (or subohm tank) have 6/7ml juice wells, some tanks have upwards of 5ml tanks (or more if you are a user of the supremeXL) So immediately, there was a gap in the market. Nic free/shortfill or DIY was the only real option left open....

Now, this was ok for more established producers, we trusted them, and the majority of established ones had there juices tested as a minimum and had clean rooms. The problem now was that there was still a market for “cheap” juice, and where the TPD “should” have nipped this in the bud with proper regulation instead of a money grab. The cheaper end of the market began to produce shortfill/nic free juice that was cheaper then it was before the TPD was! And as far as I can see, the release of new juice/brands is relentless....they do this because they can, and because there’s a market for them....

I would make a point though @JustDave about those of us that subohm just want clouds and not flavour you can have both it’s just about choosing the right juice producer that has the talent to do it right

 

[JustDave]

Some very fair comments there, and I would echo most if not all of your points Dave.

My own thoughts on this is the (de)regulation of the TPD. Now bear with me on this as I know that the TPD was supposed to regulate juice making and producing, but the opposite happened. For some (not all) the actual putting the juices through to be compliant was almost ruinous, and I would say that this might be more inclined to the sub ohm end if the market, where (myself included) would buy juice with a 60ml bottle as a minimum.

The TPD could have spelt the end of sub ohm vaping. There was no way in the world that I (and I know a good few others would agree) could ever have continued to vape the way we “prefer” to vape. A dripper (or subohm tank) have 6/7ml juice wells, some tanks have upwards of 5ml tanks (or more if you are a user of the supremeXL) So immediately, there was a gap in the market. Nic free/shortfill or DIY was the only real option left open....

Now, this was ok for more established producers, we trusted them, and the majority of established ones had there juices tested as a minimum and had clean rooms. The problem now was that there was still a market for “cheap” juice, and where the TPD “should” have nipped this in the bud with proper regulation instead of a money grab. The cheaper end of the market began to produce shortfill/nic free juice that was cheaper then it was before the TPD was! And as far as I can see, the release of new juice/brands is relentless....they do this because they can, and because there’s a market for them....

I would make a point though @JustDave about those of us that subohm just want clouds and not flavour you can have both it’s just about choosing the right juice producer that has the talent to do it right

Fully agree. I have some of @PlumeBlu and some Element shortfills that don’t lose flavour at all. In fact the Element ones (Cheeba range) seem to get more intense as I use them. I still can’t go that way all day as the style of vaping gets fatiguing to me too quickly. Still comes in handy when SWMBO is watching some crap on tv though [emoji23][emoji23]