5 Pawns delisted by Cloud 9 after tests show record levels of Diacetyl

[ned]

Scratched record on, fizzle, hiss, pop :

Make your own assessment of risk, make your own decision based on that assessment and take responsibility for your decision.

If you don't feel 'safe' using a particular product then don't use it. Take your custom elsewhere and use something you do feel 'safe' with.

It's kind of weird that folk can get so worked up about a certain liquid/manufacturer that might have the potential for 'harm', when the vast majority of us continued to use combusted tobacco for years despite knowing the attached risks.

Scraaaaaaaaaatch.

Another stylus buggered.

not sure if this will make sense or if im smart enough to put down in words whats in my head head but here goes lol.

i think the reason people are getting so worked up is because rightly or wrongly we see vaping as a community,we see the juice manufacturers as people who probably started on the vaping road in the same way as we did and for the same reasons as most of us did, to break away from tobacco and swap it for something that we believe has less risk.

people who go to the expos or whatever chat to said juice manufacturers. when i smoked i never talked to anyone from who ever makes golden virginia.

so due to this we (rightly or wrongly) assume that no juice manufacturer would deliberately load a juice with something that could be harmful,because they are part of the community,they are one of us right?

 

[labmonkeys]

Scratched record on, fizzle, hiss, pop :

Make your own assessment of risk, make your own decision based on that assessment and take responsibility for your decision.

If you don't feel 'safe' using a particular product then don't use it. Take your custom elsewhere and use something you do feel 'safe' with.

It's kind of weird that folk can get so worked up about a certain liquid/manufacturer that might have the potential for 'harm', when the vast majority of us continued to use combusted tobacco for years despite knowing the attached risks.

Scraaaaaaaaaatch.

Another stylus buggered.

Most of the people who vape see it as a harm reduction activity. So naturally when they hear that this manufacturer is using chemicals that might be dangerous they get upset. With that said, I completely agree with you. People do tend to get worked up and too quickly forget what were they smoking not long ago. Not to mention that we are just ASSUMING those chemicals are dangerous while vaped (neither Diacetyl nor AP are actually proven to cause Popcorn Lung by smoking/vaping and the two chemicals are actually contained in cigarette smoke). So in the end I agree, people should vape on it if they feel safe, if not just move on until further studies. I knew smoking was killing me but I still smoked. Personally I completely avoid juices contained Diacetyl, and try to not vape much AP and Acetoin until further studies come, but I do not avoid them like the plague.

But a real problem for me and something really upsetting is the lack of transparency. In the particular case 5 Pawns didn't post those lab testing results until the whole fiasco right? It's not like they were, "hey guys, we're using this and this chemical in our liquids, use it as you as judge", they were completely aware of the chemicals used and the dangerous, yet they still published the results only after the whole drama ensued. This I do not judge as a bad move and might even call bad intent. This is why I generally support the tests made by VaporShark, I feel sad that they caused so much trouble and controversy. I understand that the tests are not standardized, the company used doesn't have the greatest backtrack log and many people actually see this as a PR stunt or a move just trying to mud the waters but honestly I see it as something that needed to be done.

 

[Mawsley]

But a real problem for me and something really upsetting is the lack of transparency. In the particular case 5 Pawns didn't post those lab testing results until the whole fiasco right? It's not like they were, "hey guys, we're using this and this chemical in our liquids, use it as you as judge", they were completely aware of the chemicals used and the dangerous, yet they still published the results only after the whole drama ensued.

I don't think it's even this.

Where they severely dropped the ball is lying. People asked them about their juices, they lied. Test results were published, they carried on lying - and then tried to claim there is no scientific basis for worry...in effect lying about the science.

This is fraud or incompetence or a mix of both.

What concerns me is the distinct lack of professionalism this represents. Vape companies have been, by and large, set up by hobbyists. Some, the genuinely good and decent ones, have taught themselves about or sought help with the knowledge and skills they required but lacked.

FivePawns, Ameravape and more than a couple of UK vendors that I go out of my way to slag at every vape meet - they're examples of people who appear to have no skillset for business and no desire to gain one.

Being a manufacturer or vendor doesn't mean just making shit and/or popping it in an envelope. They need to know the science, the law, how to deliver great customer service and how to manage a crisis when things go tits. They need to put a shift in instead of cruising to an easy buck.

What this amplifies for me is that the handful I know of are just representative of a wider problem.

Welding wire, who remembers that one. Some vendors were happily flogging that shit on as the greatest thing in coiling. Ever. I read comments where one in the UK was making fun of the ignorance of the public. Either this twat didn't know what he was selling or he simply didn't give a shit.

This solves itself one of two ways: we stop buying from vendors and/or manufacturers who do not deserve to be in business or we embrace legislation. We've been trying the first route and it's failed, I can't see an alternative but to consider the latter as the logical next step for all of its associated ills.

 

[labmonkeys]

I don't think it's even this.

Where they severely dropped the ball is lying. People asked them about their juices, they lied. Test results were published, they carried on lying - and then tried to claim there is no scientific basis for worry...in effect lying about the science.

This is fraud or incompetence or a mix of both.

What concerns me is the distinct lack of professionalism this represents. Vape companies have been, by and large, set up by hobbyists. Some, the genuinely good and decent ones, have taught themselves about or sought help with the knowledge and skills they required but lacked.

FivePawns, Ameravape and more than a couple of UK vendors that I go out of my way to slag at every vape meet - they're examples of people who appear to have no skillset for business and no desire to gain one.

Being a manufacturer or vendor doesn't mean just making shit and/or popping it in an envelope. They need to know the science, the law, how to deliver great customer service and how to manage a crisis when things go tits. They need to put a shift in instead of cruising to an easy buck.

What this amplifies for me is that the handful I know of are just representative of a wider problem.

Welding wire, who remembers that one. Some vendors were happily flogging that shit on as the greatest thing in coiling. Ever. I read comments where one in the UK was making fun of the ignorance of the public. Either this twat didn't know what he was selling or he simply didn't give a shit.

This solves itself one of two ways: we stop buying from vendors and/or manufacturers who do not deserve to be in business or we embrace legislation. We've been trying the first route and it's failed, I can't see an alternative but to consider the latter as the logical next step for all of its associated ills.

I actually didn't know that Five Pawns outright lied to customers. I started listening that SoundCloud log someone posted a couple of pages back after I wrote the post, yet to finish it. They say a customer asked if their liquids contain Diacetyl, AP and Acetoin and they flat out said no, this is lying and completely different game. Such a shame that such problems arise from what was considered one of the best e-liquid companies and was the highest priced one with prices almost reaching for pound per ml. Ridiculous.

I actually agree on the legislation, and I've been for that since day 1 when I started vaping, even before I started reading so many forums, studies and what not. I've always felt that we need some control and research over what they put in our juices. I actually just half-read the revised TPD and there are definitely some very good stuff I saw in there, but unfortunately still some very absurd ones that make no sense to me and are actually going to be damaging and limiting to everyone from producers to vendors to customers.

This one line from the directive stroke me particularly odd - "With the exception of nicotine, the ingredients used in the nicotine-containing liquid may not pose a risk to human health in heated or unheated form.". Sounds very nice, but firstly it wouldn't be bad to actually know which chemicals pose a risk and secondly why in unheated form? I thought liquid nicotine is toxic anyway and we shouldn't spill that stuff on ourself.

 

[ned]

was having a google last night and came across a reddit (dont know what readit is if im honest) post that made me think.

Five Pawns Question... : electronic_cigarette

now to me a lot of it dont make much sense but seeing as it was posted a year ago it did make me think.

 

[warren2014]

Wonder how (if at all) this will effect them showing up at the Expo next Saturday?

 

[blademansw]

Wonder how (if at all) this will effect them showing up at the Expo next Saturday?

If they do, I hope they are wearing asbestos pants. Cos they are going to get flamed to fuck.

 

[blademansw]

I don't think it's even this.

Where they severely dropped the ball is lying. People asked them about their juices, they lied. Test results were published, they carried on lying - and then tried to claim there is no scientific basis for worry...in effect lying about the science.

This is fraud or incompetence or a mix of both.

What concerns me is the distinct lack of professionalism this represents. Vape companies have been, by and large, set up by hobbyists. Some, the genuinely good and decent ones, have taught themselves about or sought help with the knowledge and skills they required but lacked.

FivePawns, Ameravape and more than a couple of UK vendors that I go out of my way to slag at every vape meet - they're examples of people who appear to have no skillset for business and no desire to gain one.

Being a manufacturer or vendor doesn't mean just making shit and/or popping it in an envelope. They need to know the science, the law, how to deliver great customer service and how to manage a crisis when things go tits. They need to put a shift in instead of cruising to an easy buck.

What this amplifies for me is that the handful I know of are just representative of a wider problem.

Welding wire, who remembers that one. Some vendors were happily flogging that shit on as the greatest thing in coiling. Ever. I read comments where one in the UK was making fun of the ignorance of the public. Either this twat didn't know what he was selling or he simply didn't give a shit.

This solves itself one of two ways: we stop buying from vendors and/or manufacturers who do not deserve to be in business or we embrace legislation. We've been trying the first route and it's failed, I can't see an alternative but to consider the latter as the logical next step for all of its associated ills.

There is nothing that can be possibly added to this. By anyone. Ever.

And when you compare this to some of the familar faces from this forum who really do give a shit, offer best in business customer service.

The welding wire thing reminds me that Rob is sitting on about 10km of titanium isn't he? As he refused to sell it...

 

[the grumpy vaper]

What an absolute clusterfuck of epic proportions.

First trade association to demand withdrawal and cease sale of 5P e-liquids:

ECTA Notifies 50 Vendors To Cease Sale Of Five Pawns | The Grumpy Vaper

 

[blademansw]

What an absolute clusterfuck of epic proportions.

First trade association to demand withdrawal and cease sale of 5P e-liquids:

ECTA Notifies 50 Vendors To Cease Sale Of Five Pawns | The Grumpy Vaper

I believe ECITA (EU) has demanded that ALL of its members delist ALL American juices from sale. From what a little birdie was saying last night....