Fashion gadgets and liquid aroma solution oh dear

[EthelKing]

I've got to say that the vast majority of medical doctors I have spoken to (and I work with loads and loads of them!) all see the clear advantages of vaping over smoking. My three bosses all regard me as a non-smoker even though I vape.

I had a very interesting conversation about the MHRA and potential bans etc. with one of them (a senior medic of 40-odd years), and he said, "I understand your standpoint, and it's quite correct. However, medicine is science and unless it's backed by hard scientific evidence in the form of research and papers, it will struggle to survive. Anecdotal evidence is not worth the paper it's written on, unfortunately!"

And that is the crux of the matter. Doctors require proof. In years gone by there wasn't the technology that there is today, and so it was a different matter, and common sense had a part to play. Today, the science behind the medicine is so advanced that it is relied upon - blood tests that once took several hours to be completed in the lab are now performed in minutes by a machine, scanners can make 3D pictures of our insides. The science and technology is relied upon and clinical judgment is becoming a thing of "the good old days".

All a bit depressing, but sadly very true. We know vaping works, the medics are pretty sure vaping works, but until someone forks out millions (if not multi-millions) on a robust international research project which covers every aspect of vaping, we are very much pissing in the wind. I hope that the entry of BAT into the market will start a turnaround because they are the only ones (outside of the pharmacy companies) with the resources to fund research and development on the scale that is required to "normalise, reassure, prove and disprove". One thing for certain, the funding won't come from the UK government in the form of the NHS - there just isn't the money. Most Trusts are struggling to meet the financial demands placed upon them, so funding research into a "lifestyle vice" isn't going to come very high on the funding agenda.

From a government point of view, my belief is simple - they don't want to kill the golden goose that is tobacco taxation, much less allow the "platinum goose" that is vaping live - even though they make 16% duty and 20% VAT on all imports from China - that's right folks - 36% to the government before the goods are allowed into the country. Add another 20% on for vendor-consumer purchases and you have near-on 60% tax (whilst accepting that some tax will be reclaimable in some instances). They're not doing too bad out of us at the present time!

 

[Mark]

I've got to say that the vast majority of medical doctors I have spoken to (and I work with loads and loads of them!) all see the clear advantages of vaping over smoking. My three bosses all regard me as a non-smoker even though I vape.

I had a very interesting conversation about the MHRA and potential bans etc. with one of them (a senior medic of 40-odd years), and he said, "I understand your standpoint, and it's quite correct. However, medicine is science and unless it's backed by hard scientific evidence in the form of research and papers, it will struggle to survive. Anecdotal evidence is not worth the paper it's written on, unfortunately!"

And that is the crux of the matter. Doctors require proof. In years gone by there wasn't the technology that there is today, and so it was a different matter, and common sense had a part to play. Today, the science behind the medicine is so advanced that it is relied upon - blood tests that once took several hours to be completed in the lab are now performed in minutes by a machine, scanners can make 3D pictures of our insides. The science and technology is relied upon and clinical judgment is becoming a thing of "the good old days".

All a bit depressing, but sadly very true. We know vaping works, the medics are pretty sure vaping works, but until someone forks out millions (if not multi-millions) on a robust international research project which covers every aspect of vaping, we are very much pissing in the wind. I hope that the entry of BAT into the market will start a turnaround because they are the only ones (outside of the pharmacy companies) with the resources to fund research and development on the scale that is required to "normalise, reassure, prove and disprove". One thing for certain, the funding won't come from the UK government in the form of the NHS - there just isn't the money. Most Trusts are struggling to meet the financial demands placed upon them, so funding research into a "lifestyle vice" isn't going to come very high on the funding agenda.

From a government point of view, my belief is simple - they don't want to kill the golden goose that is tobacco taxation, much less allow the "platinum goose" that is vaping live - even though they make 16% duty and 20% VAT on all imports from China - that's right folks - 36% to the government before the goods are allowed into the country. Add another 20% on for vendor-consumer purchases and you have near-on 60% tax (whilst accepting that some tax will be reclaimable in some instances). They're not doing too bad out of us at the present time!

Tis a shame therefore that they don't apply the same test to smoking tobacco. All the proof they need yet still on sale. Anti smoking campaigns (faciltating only roll on roll off NRT ad nauseum in truth) are facades to pretend they care and are doing something.

 

[EthelKing]

Tis a shame therefore that they don't apply the same test to smoking tobacco. All the proof they need yet still on sale. Anti smoking campaigns (faciltating only roll on roll off NRT ad nauseum in truth) are facades to pretend they care and are doing something.

They did. There are thousands of studies and papers on the effects of smoking. The facts are accepted - it causes various conditions, not least of all cancer and COPD. I'm not sure the BMA/GMC et al are responsible for keeping tobacco on sale. I am not sure that either organisation endorses the sale of tobacco. The government, present past and future are. Doctors (in the main) care - politicians couldn't give a flying f@ck in the main. Politicians are transient.

My point is - at this moment in time NRT and the two main drug therapies are the only licenced options for the support of those attempting to give up smoking. They are the only things that have had the required research and trials carried out - by big pharmaceutical companies who have the money to do so. NO other method is available for doctors to prescribe. Until a company funds the necessary research it will remain that way - and then we enter a catch 22 situation. No research = no medical credibility, or Medical Credibility = LICENCED medicinal product - bye-bye vaping as we know it.

Nobody in their right mind will endorse vaping as safe based on the currently available research materials which are small scale and short term - remember only sixty years ago smoking was considered harmless, with a few concerns. Also, most vapers are reformed smokers, so the instances of primary cancers in vapers in the future is most likely going to be smoking related, and therefore it will muddy the waters for studies on the long-term effects of vaping.

The article in the Guardian, posted up illustrates the tax income against the health service cost. What government is going to turn away £6bn of tax. It can still keep up the "we are only thinking of you" bullshit whilst screwing as much tax out of it as possible. The benefits of taxing tobacco far outweighs the relatively short term costs of treating smokers who have complications. I've said this before, once we, as smokers, develop cancer or COPD, we don't usually remain a "burden" on the system for very long. Win-win situation for the government, as far as I can see.

If we start looking for doctors and the NHS to endorse vaping, we have to accept that the government may well say, "Brilliant! Give it a licence and add it to the NRT".

The situation regarding the sale of tobacco has nothing to do with medicine, but everything to do with politics.

 

[Mark]

Lee I don't disagree with most of what you have carefully set out. I have NO problem with doctors and health professionals. I do have a problem with the pharmeutical companies and their undue and poisonous influence on lawmakers. I don't want Vaping to be licensed. I don't want it to become a drug therapy. I see no need for medical trials in the short term. I know that doctors cannot prescribe anything other than products that are thoroughly tested and licensed. Personally I don't want them to.
What I want is the freedom to choose what I do, what risks I take, what I drink, what I ingest and so on. It's nothing to do with politicians if what I do harms no one else. They (the lawmakers, the government ) KNOW that smoking is harmful and have placed restrictions on its use in public places (some justification) and the vilification of smokers has gone way too far.
But smoking tobacco remains on the market.
The EU directive as it stands and if implemented/enforced would effectively remove or render ineffective a useful harm reduction product from those who would try it based on flimsy junk science propagated by vested interests.
I hear smokers telling me that the fact that the EU is considering draconian measures is evidence, PROOF indeed that ecigs are worse for you than fags! This is how propaganda works. It boils my waters!

 

[EthelKing]

@Mark, I agree 100% with you my friend! I stand shoulder to shoulder with you on freedom of choice too.

I'm as pissed of as you mate - and I can see no viable way of stopping the inevitable, knowing that whatever decision is made, it will be made on the crappiest of evidence that nobody, aside from us vapers, will question. It stinks.

That's why I am currently spending every available bit of surplus cash on nic-base. I am like a junkie squirrel! I am hoping that, come May, I will have so much of the stuff I will still be able to buy I will be giving it away to all and sundry - but I suspect that I won't be able to buy it any more and I will be building a temperate controlled concrete vault to keep it in!

 

[Bryan123456]

@Mark, I agree 100% with you my friend! I stand shoulder to shoulder with you on freedom of choice too.

I'm as pissed of as you mate - and I can see no viable way of stopping the inevitable, knowing that whatever decision is made, it will be made on the crappiest of evidence that nobody, aside from us vapers, will question. It stinks.

That's why I am currently spending every available bit of surplus cash on nic-base. I am like a junkie squirrel! I am hoping that, come May, I will have so much of the stuff I will still be able to buy I will be giving it away to all and sundry - but I suspect that I won't be able to buy it any more and I will be building a temperate controlled concrete vault to keep it in!

And people will be planting tobacco and extracting nicotine from it. After about 2-3 years of people quietly doing this it will have evolved into big business (along with smuggling nic base into the UK & EU) and the drug barons will get involved. After about 5 years the manufacture of nicotine will be made illegal and probably the personal growing of tobacco plants. The drug barons will thrive and people will start extracting from cigarettes, which will still be on sale and also from any vegetable that has an above average amount of nicotine.

Note to self. Place a nicvapes order.

 

[EthelKing]

And people will be planting tobacco and extracting nicotine from it. After about 2-3 years of people quietly doing this it will have evolved into big business (along with smuggling nic base into the UK & EU) and the drug barons will get involved. After about 5 years the manufacture of nicotine will be made illegal and probably the personal growing of tobacco plants. The drug barons will thrive and people will start extracting from cigarettes, which will still be on sale and also from any vegetable that has an above average amount of nicotine.

Note to self. Place a nicvapes order.

I was watching one of those "Nothing to Declare" programmes on the telly the other day, and there were about four in a row. Each and every one of them showed tobacco smuggling on a MASSIVE basis - both by individuals coming back from holiday and also through the commercial shipping routes. I didn't see much class A stuff coming though, but the amount of tobacco was astounding!

Another indication that the government's policy of harm reduction via taxation working like clockwork. It made me laugh out loud when some tart was talking about tobacco taxation on the radio not so long back, and said, "We know that every time the tax on tobacco is raised the number of smokers reduces. So it does work".

Jesus! If these arses believe this, there is no end to their stupidity!