Leave smokers alone

[Tubbyengineer]

gords1001, OK So I'm assuming from your understated reaction that you're somewhat troubled on this subject, You had permission, You weren't cloud chasing to a ridiculous degree and only one person is complaining. My response it that situation would be to politely explain that I'm allowed, It's legal, No one else is bothered, why don't you move somewhere else if it bothers you that much. Persistent complaining would be met with a slightly less polite " No one else minds so piss off somewhere else you whining chunt", ant complaints after that get a simple "Fuck off"

 

[Danny K]

Just to put one last point in to the subject even if the pub allows vaping it will only take that one person to complain before they decide to disallow it !

So fair enough in what your saying about it just being one person.
But it only takes one person to ruin it for everyone so it is better in the long run to just bite your lip and say fair enough.

 

[gords1001]

See I don't see it that way Danny K.

It does depend a lot on the landlord, and staff, so yes, you have to choose your battles and when to operate discretion.

Its like a risk assessment. You cant perform it fron the office, not accurately, you have to get ob site, assess everything then make a decision, but you turn up with a van full of tools ready to do the job, you dont just turn up with a clip board and then go back if it checks out......

 

[Tubbyengineer]

I think we all need to balance this out a bit, I appreciate the need for caution- In fact it was Myself that started the "Vaping Etiquette" thread which you should take a look at by the way Danny K, But no matter how hard you try there will always be One moaning chunt wherever you go, The one who will object to you sitting utterly still and silent in a corner, simply because they don't like you for some trivial reason. Every place has them and in the case of Pubs unless he gets multiple complaints a Landlord is unlikely to take any notice...

 

[steffijade]

To my mind, this question of etiquette/appeasement/respect is all underpinned by a deeper, more fundamental concern.

Most of us here are ex smokers and as such, we've all been on the wrong end of the vitriolic bile from the anti smoking lobby and we've become conditioned to accept that somehow, we were less worthy of respect and fair game for being vilified and demonised.

When we WERE smokers, then the anti smoking lobby held the moral high ground and were able to justify their demonisation by telling us that we were harming ourselves and others around us if we smoked in front of other people. This message was hammered home and constantly reinforced until it sank into the minds of not only ourselves, but also the public at large.

This has had the effect of making it seem acceptable to confront, belittle and berate smokers for daring to light up and now, the anti smoking lobby want to project that same negative image on to vapers too. The difference is that now we vape instead of smoking (apologies for the generalisation dual fuelers), they don't hold the moral high ground anymore and so they can't justify vilifying and demonising us anymore.

That's why they want to lump us in with tobacco at every opportunity, so that they can maintain their power and control and why it's so important for us to try and cement in the minds of the general public that there IS a difference between smoke and vapour.

And there is a difference isn't there? If we really believe that 'passive vapour' can be damaging for people around us, then it sure as hell must be damaging us even more as we absorb a good portion of the vapour contents when we inhale. If this is the case, then why don't we just give up and go back on the fags?

The general public are mostly uneducated about vaping, which given the misinformation and scaremongering that the media seems to be full of, is unsurprising. But who is going to actually educate them about vaping? The government? The anti smoking lobby and their pharma backed health 'expert' stooges?

The main responsibility for educating the public would seem to lie with us ourselves, because those that SHOULD be doing so have a vested interest in perpetuating tobacco smoking. If we act as apologists, then that merely reinforces the erroneous belief that vaping and smoking are the same thing.

If we want vaping to be seen to be acceptable, then we need to change the way that the public views it and also, we need to free OURSELVES of the associated mental programming that we've had forced into our own minds. We have no call to be guilty, ashamed or apologetic and we shouldn't accept anyone trying to force us to feel those things either.

I had a time in my life where my so called 'lifestyle choices' were deemed to be unaceptable/offensive to some people and I was vilified, demonised and belittled by them. This made me feel the same feelings that smokers have been programmed to feel... guilt, shame and a sense of being unworthy of respect. I tried to appease these people by being deferential and segregating myself to minimise potential conflict, but that didn't alter their perceptions of me or my own self perception.

It took me a long time to realise that I had a 'victim' mentality and let me tell you, if you act like a victim, there are plenty of people out there who will be happy to treat you like a victim. The only way I got my situation to improve was by standing up for myself and fighting back against the small minded and uneducated. Freeing myself from my own pre-programmed negative self perception was also the only way I could regain my self respect and sense of worth too.

THIS is what's needed when it comes to vaping imho... we need to stop being apologists and stand up for our right to be treated as human beings, not easy targets for those who feel that they're still entitled to berate and belittle us.

If we act like victims, then that's exactly how 'they' will treat us.

 

[gords1001]

Thank you steffijade, a very eloquent way of conveying my own feelings, until people actually get that vaping is fundamentally different to smoking, we are going to be tarred by the same brush, people need to understand that vaping is not smoking.

Not so we can ride rough shod over anti smoking laws, but so that we can actually choose to vape in the first place, because that is where we are at the moment. We are considered by the powers that be as smokers, smokers who are successfully dodging giving them money, thats why we are being lumped back in with tobacco products, thats why they want to legislate the devices we know to work out of the picture.

And they are getting away with it, their getting away with it because the general public neither knows nor cares that there is a difference. Its up to us to educate them that there is a difference, we can only do That by being visible, we can only fo that by being approachable, people will only know we are approachable by us being visible.

As I keep saying, hiding and apologising is not the answer, being a prick is not the answer either, but standing up for our rights, being able to explain things when asked, being able to counter the petty bigotry, and being prepared to, that's the answer.

 

[The Artful Regster]

Nobody has a right to do anything in someone else's establishment though.... you can get thrown out of anywhere for any reason that doesn't involve ethnic or age prejudice etc. One of the only places you have a different right to vape over smoke is in the workplace or in company vehicles if you own your own business. Think about it... if a bunch of people came in blowing bubbles all over the place in the majority of businesses they'd probably be asked to leave on the basis that they are simply annoying people, so I think it's counterproductive taking the "it's my right" stand - especially when nobody has a right in the circumstances we are talking about anyway.

So whether we blow raspberries, bubbles or Hanseng we do need to be considerate. Considerate to everyone else who wants to be allowed by the management to vape in places where smoking isn't allowed by law. All it takes for something to get banned in Establishment X is for a bunch of nitwits to overplay their cards... even if they themselves do not get ejected the next innocent semi-stealth vapour/bubble blower or Flatulence Club member might.

In the end the safety of vaping is irrelevant... the deciding factor is perception, which the PR machines of the losing industries are doing their best to muddy. Blowing giant plumes of vapour around is helping them an awful lot more than semi-stealth vaping at the end of a restaurant table all night and having dubious dinner guests delighted at the end of the night that they were not bothered the entire night by fumes they don't know whether to be scared of or not.

I'm all for defending the right of people to blow bubbles or vape, but there is obviously a line where you can be seen as taking the piss.

 

[Danny K]

^ Well said.

 

[carcosa]

Nobody has a right to do anything in someone else's establishment though.... you can get thrown out of anywhere for any reason that doesn't involve ethnic or age prejudice etc. One of the only places you have a different right to vape over smoke is in the workplace or in company vehicles if you own your own business. Think about it... if a bunch of people came in blowing bubbles all over the place in the majority of businesses they'd probably be asked to leave on the basis that they are simply annoying people, so I think it's counterproductive taking the "it's my right" stand - especially when nobody has a right in the circumstances we are talking about anyway.

So whether we blow raspberries, bubbles or Hanseng we do need to be considerate. Considerate to everyone else who wants to be allowed by the management to vape in places where smoking isn't allowed by law. All it takes for something to get banned in Establishment X is for a bunch of nitwits to overplay their cards... even if they themselves do not get ejected the next innocent semi-stealth vapour/bubble blower or Flatulence Club member might.

In the end the safety of vaping is irrelevant... the deciding factor is perception, which the PR machines of the losing industries are doing their best to muddy. Blowing giant plumes of vapour around is helping them an awful lot more than semi-stealth vaping at the end of a restaurant table all night and having dubious dinner guests delighted at the end of the night that they were not bothered the entire night by fumes they don't know whether to be scared of or not.

I'm all for defending the right of people to blow bubbles or vape, but there is obviously a line where you can be seen as taking the piss.

Couldn't agree more. There is a time and a place for militancy. Pick your moment accordingly.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Planet of the Vapes mobile app

 

[steffijade]

If an establishment has a non vaping policy, I'll respect that and take my cash elsewhere. If you're vaping on premises without permission then you should expect trouble, but if you are in a pro vaping establishment, then anyone who got offended by it should also respect the wishes of the owner and leave if they don't like it... what's good for the goose etc.

I think a lot of people have yet to realise just how thoroughly they have been conditioned against smoking. The anti smoking lobby have done a good job of denormalising it and making it appear to be aberrant behaviour.. just pray that they don't do the same to vaping and it won't matter how discreet or considerate we are.. we are in their sights already, regardless.

By all means, be as considerate/discreet as you wish, but you really ought to be examining your own mindset to find just how conditioned you have become... and it's not about being militant, it's about regaining the right to be viewed as being a human being instead of monster spreading toxic death clouds.

Think about it.