I wont be answering a single part of this or be drawn any deeper into the thread, any and all of it is just general rambling thoughts. I apologise up front for it being so long and potentially disjointed.
I can see both sides of this, moral and legal. I wasnt going to weigh in, but somehow the one thing that keeps hitting me in all this. There is currently no law against what the sellers did, as a result there is no story here worthy of print or discussion as it currently stands in my mind. Its just more BS. I thought I was aginst the sale to kids, but then I wonder about it all and it gets confusing very fast. So much so I dont even want to try and fully process my feelings on that one way or the other.
We are arguing amongst ourselves when in reality we should be pulling together.
Selling to kids? especially high Mg is morally wrong. but so is all the sugary crap we let kids have (also legally), so is the fattening junk food (legally). At some point the parental argument comes in, maybe they should teach the kids its not good for them. will it work? no, course not, many will ignore it.
The vaping world is under attack, and yes, there are kids who illegally obtain cigarettes by whatever means and smoke them, and there are those who vape, and possibly many of those vaping are no longer smoking, but so what? the smoking bit IS illegal, but for some reason keeps getting glossed over as the vape war is far more interesting to those able to affect public opinion at the moment. when it comes to kids buying or acquiring cigs they keep finding ways do it. Instead of us all getting morally superior, we should be saying to the parents of these kids, sort your own shit out, whether thats cigs or vape gear, do your job and be a parent, and if you cant, then dont come whining about it, face up to your own family failures and dont push those failures on others. Sorry if this sounds offensive to some, but It seems like a lot of those out there plying the 'think of the kids' aspect are trying to shirk their responsibilities by putting the onus on others to legally put a restriction in place (that already doesnt work in the case of cigs) instead of putting their own houses in order, and worse, putting their own moral stance on others without considering the wider picture that maybe in some cases vaping is helping a kid break his own dependency on tobacco. When we as a collective group of adults stop him doing what he is doing, will he just go back to the cigs? and what help was this ban to him then? Its just another collateral damage group in the war on vaping. Think of the kids is pretty much one of the establishments primary weapons in how bad vapers are as people (you know, those who have quit cigarettes and are happy with vaping, incidentally, voters too).
My personal stance on the content of that report stands. No law broken, no foul. just bullshit. Morally I feel there should be some restriction for kids, but then I think how much we are against the restrictions being considered for us and how ticked off we will be when the government bends us over and that makes me wonder about it altogether. The way this argument is running leads it towards the only workable conclusion that the powers that be would likely consider safe, and thats a total ban. On all of it, countrywide. fines for vaping in public. the whole caboodle.
That I most definitely do not want to see, but the hornets nest and complications brought up by stupidly ignorant reporters and government jobsworths who make problems where there may actually be none just feeds the demons.
Can you imagine as a shopkeeper, working in a town or village selling vape gear, where in a years sales you have had one kid (lets say hes 14 for ease of description) ask for an ego and some zero nic vanilla. You sell it to him and for a year no other kids in that village buy a single thing vape related from you. Then some tw@ of a reporter or gov department gets a dozen kids together over a week and sends them around all the shops as a test. Suddenly the news is full of kids vaping in epidemic proportions (legally as it turns out at this moment). 12 times as many children buying vape gear this year over last. A hell of a headline.Yet there wasnt actually an issue until the so called buying trials. But worse, those same kids are now going to be talking with other kids about what they were doing recently, and some of those listeners will likely end up doing exactly what the so called test was put in place to highlight as a problem in the first place. Even if only one kid did it, it would mean a genuine increase over what could have actually been none if they hadnt interfered. A whole new market created by intelligent idiots trying to prove a point. But it wouldnt matter, the 'point' would be proved in their minds that there was a genuine problem and instead of them creating it as in this description they actually did, it would be something they had identified and allow them to be all pious and full of themselves.
This whole area is full of pitfalls,it is potentially one of the more complicated issues, but we are getting drawn into it. Vapers with kids will start peeling off into splinter groups with different ideas than they carry now and before long the vaping community will become ever more fragmented. we would be better served fighting the things we actually need to fight right now and disregarding this hyperbole. I doubt many adults would object to a ban on sales to kids. I wouldnt, doesnt affect me anyway. But there lies the rub. To anyone it doesnt affect it is all too easy to just say, yeah, go for it. We may be over 2 million, but I keep seeing the same shit out there, no proof it helps to quit cigs, flavours aimed at children, the same drivel being churned out. Yet so many of us adults like flavours that are not tobacco and so many of us have quit the cigs in favour of those very flavours. The advertising of the 70s and 80s demonised cigarettes by blaming nicotine. tying the 2 together in some easy target advertising. We pay the price for that ignorance now as nicotine is seen as being just as bad as the cigarettes that contain it. Seemingly intelligent people look no further than what they were being told as kids. nicotine is bad. End of argument in their minds.
In the prohibition era of the US in the early 20th century, the liquor and beer suppliers made the mistake of not fighting together, it weakened their stance and before anyone knew it the liquor boys were out. Beer didnt expect a kicking, but they still got it. Governers and mayors (who a lot of the time liked a drink as much as anyone else) had to vote for prohibition or risk losing their seats as the temperance brigade were in full flow and easily able to ruin numerous leaders political aspirations just by turning up in force against them. Public opinion, the press, all geared up to one end, do away with alcohol.
The more fragmented vapers become, the easier it will be to stamp out the vaping community. We are in trouble people, and infighting wont help us one bit nor will the propaganda machines around us that are intent on our demise any more than it helped the alcohol brigade in prohibition times.
Before the 'think of the kids' argument should be on our lips, we should stabilise the other aspect first, the selfish one which is 'What about us?', think about the alledged 2 million (how did they count me in that number, I havent told anyone in power I vape) and more adults first. We are the ones who are able to make an informed decision. but we are also the ones having that choice made for us, or more accurately, taken from us.
This wasnt a rant, just a ramble, and as such I may think different on a lot of aspects tomorrow, but tonight, all I know is that I am sick of the BS in the press and this thread actually isnt one I will likely follow, all this was just food for thought really so thats my bit (albeit a big bit) done and I respectfully bow out of the interactive aspect of this thread. I hope you guys sort it out amicably.
