Temp control vaping

[Tubbyengineer]

With kanthal I control my vape with the wattage setting, airflow and the duration of the draw. I like an easy, open draw typically around the 4 second mark. I like a smooth, warm vape, not cool, not hot and definitely don't want spitback from overly aggressive coils and too much power. I break in a new coil and wick at 20W and increase the power until I have the warmth and flavour that I want. I'll settle at 30-45W depending on the juice. I typically build larger diameter coils, 3.0-3.5mm ID and use plenty of either Muji or Fiber Freaks wicking. I need to change those wicks when the flavour goes off, typically after 12-15mls of juice which is my average daily usage. Obviously, I build smaller diameter coils only if the atty's deck constrains this.

Tried TC first with Ni200 and Ti following all the advice and guidance I had read. I still made mistakes though. Tried microcoils first then standard coils. I tried less wicking, I tried even less wicking. I abandoned microcoils because they were gunking. I abandoned Ni200 because the coils were not robust and the vape was too cool. Standard Ti coils with less wick than kanthal but more than NI200 seemed OK but the coils and wicks didn't last longer than kanthal; wicks about the same but the coils didn't last. Next I tried NiFe30 and it was immediately better than both Ni200 and Ti. I tried microcoils and spaced coils ... again, I found that spaced coils worked best with TC. With Niffy the wicks last about the same amount of time but the spaced coils are still not as robust as kanthal and need replacing more often. I get weeks of use from a kanthal build, lucky to get a few days from Niffy.

My approach to TC is to set a low temp first at 25-30J then increase the temp until the vape is warm enough, then adjust the Joules to hit temp as soon as possible. The warmth curve is unlike kanthal, which is a steady incline. With my usual easy, open draw the TC vape doesn't deliver the same way. The difference isn't crucial, it just requires an adjustment to my previous experience. I would be happy with that if all else was the same. Vapers differ in the warmth of vape that they prefer. TC can be for some and not for others.

For me to get the same warmth of vape of kanthal, the temp settings have to be high ... higher than the point at which my juice is caramelising. Wicks therefore don't last as long and together with having to rebuild coils more often, the net effect is that TC is more work, or faff, than non-TC. This is the reverse of the goals I set out to achieve and I'm now told that apparently this is an unrealistic expectation. Before NIffy, I had considered that I had to reset my expectations for TC - it was always going to be a cooler vape. Niffy seemed to change that, it was a great step forward. But the bottom line for me is that even with Niffy, TC does not deliver longer lasting wicks and coils. Not unless I change my juice.

Another goal was to extend battery life. Form factor is important to me, I have no interest in large mods like dual 18650s, I want a mod to sit inside my hand. Single 18650 mods won't last me a day so I'm happy to carry around 2 mods, always have a back up anyway, right? Seems to me, from all the feedback on various mods, that TC modes drain batteries faster than non-TC. It seems TC is regressive in benefit delivery here. One more reason for the kanthal vaper not to make the switch.

Were my goals unrealistic from the start? Did I set out to fail deliberately? Do you want to tell me that I don't know how to set up a wick? Maybe I just don't understand TC enough to use it properly. In answer to your second question, in my experience TC is making the issue worse, I get no benefit from TC.

To be honest, I feel OK with that. I'm in a good place with my vaping and I've certainly learned something from giving TC a go. Time spent learning is not time wasted. It just might not be for everyone. Sorry that this is a long post but you probably need to understand where I'm coming from to make sense of where I was going ...

MrFuckOffAndStopPosting says:

Ah, Right. Now I've read that everything makes a lot more sense and I can see where your frustration comes from. Frankly with TC and juice composition in their current state then it certainly seems like TC isn't going to offer you what you want. I doubt theres anything that can be done to acheive what you want with the tech as it stands. Probably the only atty that stands any chance of delivering the type of vape you want is the Heron - Mine always seems to vape much warmer at the same temp settings as other atty's - probably something to do with the design and resticted airflow.

Coil material is always going to be problematic, Niffy is good to work with but less durable than Kanthal or Ti, Ti needs too much brute force and Ni200 was just an easy option for Evolv but no one else.
Wick is another thing that seems to defy the logic behind TC - My wicks are cleaner with TC but I still have to change them about 15-20 ml's as flavour drop off - perhaps this is down to some other mechanism we aren't yet aware of...

I must say in my previous post I was rather struggling to see your point and just seemed to recall a series of "It's not for me"' posts that, at the time seemed rather like someone who disliked TC for the sake of disliking TC - Although now you've clarified things I understand exactly where you're coming from and I agree with you, unless there is a step change in the way TC is implemented then it really Isn't for you, a shame after all the time you've put into trying it but that's just the way it is for now. Pick up some extra Kanthal and get busy coiling, at least you can use all those mods in Power mode - where they probably will give good battery life as the boards are pretty efficient when not running TC...

 

[Darthpistachio]

with regards to the flavour loss over time - I think this is a side effect of the inherent nature of cotton regardless what coil you're using - the cotton is essentially a wick firstly - yes - but also an effective filter second and overtime it will filter out particles along the wick channels and they will eventually wick less and less and thus the flavour loss over time logically would seem to be be less juice making it to the coil to be vaporised per second than before and the result is loss of perceived taste due to lack of concentration of the flavour particles - does that make sense?

I paid out for cotton bacon in the end and I found it much superior to most everything else I tried - MUJI for me still had a funky taste and I have still to try the General cotton yet but I have some here.. I would suggest to everyone that they buy the best cotton they an afford - I for one avoided the pricey stuff for ages BUT when I looked at how little I actually use of it now it's worth the very little outlay for it..

for me the only time I tried a Genesis before the cheap one I had gave me a burnt hit and scared me off it for years - when it worked it was the cleanest best taste reproduction I ever experienced - heck I might have to give genesis another go sometime

 

[SimonB2008]

with regards to the flavour loss over time - I think this is a side effect of the inherent nature of cotton regardless what coil you're using - the cotton is essentially a wick firstly - yes - but also an effective filter second and overtime it will filter out particles along the wick channels and they will eventually wick less and less and thus the flavour loss over time logically would seem to be be less juice making it to the coil to be vaporised per second than before and the result is loss of perceived taste due to lack of concentration of the flavour particles - does that make sense?

I paid out for cotton bacon in the end and I found it much superior to most everything else I tried - MUJI for me still had a funky taste and I have still to try the General cotton yet but I have some here.. I would suggest to everyone that they buy the best cotton they an afford - I for one avoided the pricey stuff for ages BUT when I looked at how little I actually use of it now it's worth the very little outlay for it..

for me the only time I tried a Genesis before the cheap one I had gave me a burnt hit and scared me off it for years - when it worked it was the cleanest best taste reproduction I ever experienced - heck I might have to give genesis another go sometime

Interesting theory re loss of flavour due to filtration. I can see where you're coming from.

 

[be74]

I just wanted to say.. Lol @ dogwank.. Never heard that one before

 

[scrumpox]

with regards to the flavour loss over time - I think this is a side effect of the inherent nature of cotton regardless what coil you're using - the cotton is essentially a wick firstly - yes - but also an effective filter second and overtime it will filter out particles along the wick channels and they will eventually wick less and less and thus the flavour loss over time logically would seem to be be less juice making it to the coil to be vaporised per second than before and the result is loss of perceived taste due to lack of concentration of the flavour particles - does that make sense?

I paid out for cotton bacon in the end and I found it much superior to most everything else I tried - MUJI for me still had a funky taste and I have still to try the General cotton yet but I have some here.. I would suggest to everyone that they buy the best cotton they an afford - I for one avoided the pricey stuff for ages BUT when I looked at how little I actually use of it now it's worth the very little outlay for it..

for me the only time I tried a Genesis before the cheap one I had gave me a burnt hit and scared me off it for years - when it worked it was the cleanest best taste reproduction I ever experienced - heck I might have to give genesis another go sometime

I agree with Simon that this is an interesting theory ... but wouldn't you expect a filter to get increasingly inefficient rather than blocking an increasing amount of flavour? Wouldn't a higher quality cotton also make a higher quality filter? It all seems rather counter-intuitive to me.
Would be interesting to test your theory on the mechanic next time the car's in for a service.

 

[Darthpistachio]

Nothing counter intuitive about it - it works exactly like any filter.

The filter catches particles of whatever it is filtering in it's matrix and over time flow gets more and more restricted. As the filter medium gets more and more full with the particles it's filtering - then it actually starts to become an very over-efficient filter - and blocks yet more and more - better and better - and faster and faster to boot - then it becomes very poor at actually passing the base liquid through. - Ultimately you get to the point where it stops filtering and starts blocking completely.

This is why we have to keep changing filters in our cars and bikes be they air, fuel or oil filters or performance ultimately drops off - if anybody can remember owning a car with an actual CARB you can attest to the difference it made putting on a K&N free flow filter to the performance - you basically decreased the filtration for the benefit of more air to get better performance - but you had to keep that filter clean..

In the case of vaping with a brand spanker cotton wick in there - there is full juice wicking from capillary action through the cotton fibres helped along by the Venturi effect. Over time the cotton will filter out particles - trapping them in between the individual fibres. Less liquid wicks along the inner part of the cotton and starts to rely more and more on the outside of the wick to pass juice along. Ultimately over time you'd get almost total saturation if done long enough - less space for liquid to wick through except for along the outside and through some individual channels that would collapse and form in the insides - this would mean that less and less flavour would eventually make it to the coil per second to be vaped.

everybody knows what will happen if you put too much cotton in - you choke the wick - block wicking channels and ultimately get dry hits as the juice cannot wick fast enough to keep up with the coil heat. Gungeing up over time with flavour particles would ultimately have the same effect if you kept the same wick in there long enough. Especially so if you're a heavy wattage vaper.

Taste is relative to how much flavour can be vaped per second - if you could vape an entire ML of juice in one go you would get a MAHOOSIVE flavour hit - just like having neat squash as opposed to diluting it in a glass.

makes perfect sense to me and it's what I have observed here.

 

[Darthpistachio]

and interestingly to change the subject for a second - An old time served mechanic once taught me a very valuable lesson when it came to things like adding Slick 50 to the oil in your car.

He posited this - putting large particles of Teflon in your oil would immediately be filtered out completely by your oil filter if it was doing it's job properly and would rarely get time to work its supposed magic on the internals of your engine - You're then left with an almost totally blocked oil filter that comes with all the problems associated with it engine wise.

Sure enough go and look it up and even Monsanto - who make Teflon - suggest that users do NOT use it in engines for this very reason..

 

[scrumpox]

ah yeah, I remember Slick 50 ... my old man was a mechanic andhe said the same thing so we gave it a go. Fresh oil, fresh oil filer, dose of Slick50, run the engine for a while, change the oil filter again. Did it work? We thought the engine ran smoother and cold started better ... but who knows, eh? Certainly wasn't going to test it by draining the oil and seeing how long it went before it seized.

 

[cheersm8]

Interesting thread, but even after everyone's input I'm still none the wiser about temperature controlled vaping.
The only thing that I have gleaned is that although TC vaping allows you to set, and use, a desired temperature, it's still restricted to the temperature parameters of the "chip" and can not be used above, or below, the max/min settings available.
So, on that score, the big question for me is who, how, and for what reasons, the temperature control chips are made with their particular minimum/maximums?
For example - min = 300F max = 600F (on some models) Why 300F and 600F? Why not more or less? Who and why, in their infinite wisdom, decided on the magic numbers?
Yes, I'm a numpty with regard to TC vaping and what I know will easily fit onto the back of a postage stamp but, so far, all I can see is that using TC may compensate for a shite ability to build a decent coil and wick, and the main reason TC is available is simply because it's possible.
With regard to the oft quoted "TC prevents dry hits" it's beyond me how anybody suffers from dry hits anyway but, if they are, then there's a load more aspects to look at before deciding to use temperature to fix it.

 

[scrumpox]

Interesting thread, but even after everyone's input I'm still none the wiser about temperature controlled vaping.
The only thing that I have gleaned is that although TC vaping allows you to set, and use, a desired temperature, it's still restricted to the temperature parameters of the "chip" and can not be used above, or below, the max/min settings available.
So, on that score, the big question for me is who, how, and for what reasons, the temperature control chips are made with their particular minimum/maximums?
For example - min = 300F max = 600F (on some models) Why 300F and 600F? Why not more or less? Who and why, in their infinite wisdom, decided on the magic numbers?
Yes, I'm a numpty with regard to TC vaping and, so far, all I can see is that using TC may compensate for a shite ability to build a decent coil and wick, and the main reason TC is available is simply because it's possible.
With regard to the oft quoted "TC prevents dry hits" it's beyond me how anybody suffers from dry hits anyway but, if they are, then there's a load more aspects to look at before deciding to use temperature to fix it.

I ponder the same thing @cheersm8
As vapers I think all we can do is ask the question - is it for me? So that's why I'll persist with my own trials.
But more widely we can ask "who is TC aimed at and why?" I think the answer is all vapers for safety reasons.

At one end of the vaping spectrum you have the relative newbie, not into rebuilding, who buys a subohm tank, a load of TC coils and a TC capable mod. Learning to vape by setting temperature is much more intuitive than all that faff about watts ... I mean, what are watts, ohms and volts anyway, right? They're just obstacles to take up, nobody wants to learn all that shit when you're starting out. Stick in the coil, add juice, set the temperature, vape, adjust the temperature, carry on vaping until there's no more juice ... SAFELY. Sound good?

At the other end of the vaping spectrum are the geeks like you, me and a lot of apes. We've been vaping for a while, we're used to all kinds of devices and paraphernalia, we like building to suit our style of vaping. What are we supposed to get from TC?
To this there seem to be many answers. An excuse to try something new ... fiddling with different wires ... expanding the hobby ... prefering the consistent vape quality ... prefering the taste ... and perhaps the main one ... safety.
I think it's unfair to many vapers to say that they're using TC just to compensate for shite ability to build. It might be true in my case but nobody likes to admit that they're a bad driver do they? No, I think the reasons for TC are varied and I remain convinced that it is the future for vaping, a. because in future it'll be so much easier and b. because it's safer.

Why safer? Because I believe the big news that has yet to come to vaping is the understanding of juice flavourings and the longer term risks involved in inhaling the stuff that's produced when it's vaporised. We all have different attitudes to risk, particularly unknown risks. We're ex-smokers in the main and we've quit smoking mostly for health reasons. Common sense says we should be thinking about the health aspects of vaping too.

PHE says vaping is 95% safer than smoking. We all believe that and for some that's enough. But what about that other 5%? Why shouldn't vapers aim for 99.8% safer? It might make all the difference to living a bit longer.