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(This is it) TPD Regulations 2016

I am waiting on a reply from the MHRA about the missing CAS numbers as I want clarification on the situation should flavour companies be not willing to supply them. Unfortunately the whole juice industry is akin to a headless chicken at the moment trying to get every duck in a row that few of us have even time to talk with each other like we did just a few months ago. Ideally the MHRA will allow supply of flavouring and supplier names should the CAS option be a total roadblock from the supplier side of things.

As far as I can tell, the MHRA have actually used a pretty light touch when it comes to transposing the legislation to UK law but even so there are a few sections of the EU TPD that cannot realistically be interpreted loosely (which is how they have managed to be lighter than other countries) so I doubt there is much in the way of wiggle room.

For us, we have CAS numbers for a lot of the flavours we use and a full GC-MS breakdown of percentages used over 1% - for those flavours we already have the data for notification but it leaves us with chunks missing from other companies that haven't or won't supply theirs. It leaves only a couple of options:

1: reformulate the flavour using houses that are supplying CAS data - this isn't a good solution for us, in By Jove for example we use a few different Rhubarb's to create our stewed flavour and this is not able to be replicated using other flavours with available data (we have tried)

2: drop that flavour from the line, again not ideal when the likes of By Jove is one of our best sellers

3: try to find a flavour house that can replicate the flavour as a custom order - not a cheap option to add to the already mounting costs.

I know of a lot of other companies that are using lots of flavours that the CAS data is just not being offered - infact it was blankly refused by flavour houses. For a reputable business to be placed in such a tight squeeze from all angles is unacceptable and not fair in the slightest. This regulation was meant to keep a track of ingredients for safety and traceability reasons but turned into a method to close the door to many in the industry.

There is a reason that BAT and the like are being investigated by the EU commission for bribery and illegal influence relating to the TPD legislation process. Many of the lobbyists used every tactic they could to swing the legislation toward being harsh on small business as they know they have the financial power and political sway to sweep up the mess and re-invigorate their own dying business model.

Yep, you ain't wrong in anything you say :(
One of my ADVs from a UK juice chef had to be dropped because of the CAS intransigence.

We know you meant to say suspected or alleged "bribery and illegal influence" (bastards have deep pockets and long arms, allegedly) ;)

The DoH Impact Assessment makes for a deeply disturbing read.
 
Anyone who thinks that the juice manufacturers have got a simple task to stay in business are missing most of the picture. I have read on here people stating that 'reputable' manufacturers will be fine and I can assure you that most will not be.

Food hygeine rated preparation areas, HEPA filtration (in our case ULPA) and all the trimmings to ensure clean and safe manufacture aren't the problem. The main one being the reliance on flavour houses to supply the CAS numbers needed to notify the MHRA of ingredients - most won't play ball. Now the logical thing here would be for the government to accept flavour brand and names as part of notification - if they are already regulating the flavouring industry (if not, why not) then they will already have this data so why put the burden of information on manufacturers who cannot get the required information? It's counter-productive and incredibly restrictive.

Places like Capella are outright refusing to play ball with those that use them, smaller houses won't be able to supply for fear of releasing their unique chemical recipe (which this is asking for)

Having just sunk over £25k on a new facility (and counting, the cleanroom still needs another £5k+ spending to be completed) we are still left in the balance, we have the reputation for quality, we have the processes for clean manufacture, we have the capacity to supply the 13 countries that Colonel Boom's and Fallstreak ships to. What we don't have is a reasonable roadmap and costing for placing our products into the system for the required tests - this all needs to be finalised by 19th November and paid for in advance too.

We have figures from £60k to £500k+ being given to us - just for testing and notification costs. Both figures need to be in the bank and clear before we pay all the rest of our operating costs and even for a small to medium sized established company this is a lot of outlay.

If anyone thinks that TPD will stop disreputable sellers, bedroom mixers who sell homebrew through Fb they are wrong - they will carry on regardless without investing anywhere close to what we, Manabush et-al have done and yet it is we that will bear the full force of regulation to potentially put us out of business.

For the record, food hygiene rating on preparation and inspection for manufacturing along with notification to MHRA would have been welcomed actually - we already have GC-MS testing done to assure quality and consistency. It's the completely invented emissions and toxicology testing imposed that's the big issue, along with the requirement to supply detailed CAS breakdown on products we don't manufacture nor are covered in legislation to require their disclosure.
this ^ oh fucking this
 
Thanks for explaining it so well @PlumeBlu.

https://www.planetofthevapes.co.uk/forums/members/plumeblu.6705/
It's interesting to know that some concentrate manufactures are open about their CAS numbers, while others are not so forthcoming. Do you think that, in time, market forces will dictate that they cooperate and release the information, or is EU vaping simply not large enough to worry about for them?

Does the craft juice industry have any sort of alliance or association to represent them? I think that if the public knew that they were going to lose many of their favourite juices it could only help your cause.
 
Thanks for explaining it so well @PlumeBlu.

It's interesting to know that some concentrate manufactures are open about their CAS numbers, while others are not so forthcoming. Do you think that, in time, market forces will dictate that they cooperate and release the information, or is EU vaping simply not large enough to worry about for them?

Does the craft juice industry have any sort of alliance or association to represent them? I think that if the public knew that they were going to lose many of their favourite juices it could only help your cause.

I would like to think that as regulations demand CAS data, those that aren't playing ball will eventually lose enough money to start supplying it. I know they say the ecig market is only a fraction of their sales but (for example, one of our last orders) losing £16k to a single repeat business every few weeks ought to make a dent when multiplied by the number of customers. Other companies may see the opportunity and I know of at least two that have setup a flavourings supply with CAS data readily available just for TPD - the trouble is that everyone's flavours are slightly different but when mixed makes enough difference to ruin a flavour.

About a year ago, Us (PlumeBlu/Colonel Boom's/Fallstreak), Manabush, El-Diablo, Dunford's, Van Dyke Vapes, B-Juice and a few others were looking to setup an eliquid manufacturers association but again with all the crap regarding the TPD keeping our feet off the ground we never got around to doing so, our aim was to get the buying power of the Uk eliquid manufacturers combined and create a database of flavours with CAS data as it was supplied for open sharing. Other than that there has been no other alliance of worth to really look out for our interests - others that claim to represent the UK industry have an angle that none of us feel comfortable with or remotely trust.
 
I would like to think that as regulations demand CAS data, those that aren't playing ball will eventually lose enough money to start supplying it. I know they say the ecig market is only a fraction of their sales but (for example, one of our last orders) losing £16k to a single repeat business every few weeks ought to make a dent when multiplied by the number of customers. Other companies may see the opportunity and I know of at least two that have setup a flavourings supply with CAS data readily available just for TPD - the trouble is that everyone's flavours are slightly different but when mixed makes enough difference to ruin a flavour.

About a year ago, Us (PlumeBlu/Colonel Boom's/Fallstreak), Manabush, El-Diablo, Dunford's, Van Dyke Vapes, B-Juice and a few others were looking to setup an eliquid manufacturers association but again with all the crap regarding the TPD keeping our feet off the ground we never got around to doing so, our aim was to get the buying power of the Uk eliquid manufacturers combined and create a database of flavours with CAS data as it was supplied for open sharing. Other than that there has been no other alliance of worth to really look out for our interests - others that claim to represent the UK industry have an angle that none of us feel comfortable with or remotely trust.
I have some faith in EECBA to be honest - at least in theory .. I'm looking into it more - but ultimately yes you are right.

one of the main problems is : the flavour houses may bend to financial pressure eventually - by that time tho it could well be too late for some of the smaller e-liquid producers
 
Yet today.

Yes.

To-Feckin'-Day

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...couraged-major-report-concludes-a7003891.html

“This report lays to rest almost all of the concerns over these products, and concludes that, with sensible regulation, electronic cigarettes have the potential to make a major contribution towards preventing the premature death, disease and social inequalities in health that smoking currently causes in the UK. Smokers should be reassured that these products can help them quit all tobacco use forever.”
 


Obviously he's talking about the USA who for the most part are having a worse time of it than us.
But the principle remains the same. Shoot me down in flames at will, but I think this relevant wherever you live.
 
With regards to the TPD I still feel that the most important parts of the legislation are
Regulation 36

(2) Nicotine-containing liquid which is presented for retail sale must be in—


(a) a dedicated refill container in a volume not exceeding 10 millilitres; or


(b) a disposable electronic cigarette, a single use cartridge, or a tank, in a volume not


exceeding 2 millilitres.


(3) The capacity of the tank of a refillable electronic cigarette must not exceed 2 millilitres.


Part (2) above is fairly easy to digest and interpret - If it's got liquid in, when presented for sale, then it's 10ml for a bottle of juice and 2ml for a tank. IMPORTANT - Part (2) only applies if the bottle, or tank, has e-liquid in!

Part (3) is not so straightforward to interpret, BUT SHOULD BE when taken at face value without the restrictions of worry gutting and mithering! Part (3) CLEARLY states that the tank capacity of a "Refillable Electronic Cigarette" must not exceed 2ml (whether it's sold with juice in or not) . No problem understanding or interpreting that.
BUT - A tank on it's own, with no liquid in it, no battery, no electronics and no means of operating as an electronic cigarette, is NOT AN ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE.

Take the TPD at face value and implement what it defines, and NOT what you think it defines will be, in my opinion a very wise move.

ps Regulation 36 Part 10 (b) which clearly states that the juice bottles (refill containers) operate by means of a docking system which only releases refill liquids into the tank of an electronic cigarette when the electronic cigarette and refill container are connected will, for the mitherers, prove to be a huge headache and mind fuck
 
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