(This is it) TPD Regulations 2016
- Thread starter MrDJ
- Start date
From EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM TO THE ELECTRONIC CIGARETTES ETC. (FEES) REGULATIONS 2016:
3.2 This instrument is subject to a negative resolution procedure and has not been prayed against. However, Members may wish to be aware that the Tobacco Products Directive implementation regulations, to which these fees relate and which is due to come into force on the same date of 20 May 2016, has been prayed against.
3.2 This instrument is subject to a negative resolution procedure and has not been prayed against. However, Members may wish to be aware that the Tobacco Products Directive implementation regulations, to which these fees relate and which is due to come into force on the same date of 20 May 2016, has been prayed against.
SirLugg
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I like this. Sounds like Predator is going after the mofo's. That would be good.
velocitygirl
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I have visions of juice-making monks chanting against the tpd...
Colonelboom
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Anyone who thinks that the juice manufacturers have got a simple task to stay in business are missing most of the picture. I have read on here people stating that 'reputable' manufacturers will be fine and I can assure you that most will not be.
Food hygeine rated preparation areas, HEPA filtration (in our case ULPA) and all the trimmings to ensure clean and safe manufacture aren't the problem. The main one being the reliance on flavour houses to supply the CAS numbers needed to notify the MHRA of ingredients - most won't play ball. Now the logical thing here would be for the government to accept flavour brand and names as part of notification - if they are already regulating the flavouring industry (if not, why not) then they will already have this data so why put the burden of information on manufacturers who cannot get the required information? It's counter-productive and incredibly restrictive.
Places like Capella are outright refusing to play ball with those that use them, smaller houses won't be able to supply for fear of releasing their unique chemical recipe (which this is asking for)
Having just sunk over £25k on a new facility (and counting, the cleanroom still needs another £5k+ spending to be completed) we are still left in the balance, we have the reputation for quality, we have the processes for clean manufacture, we have the capacity to supply the 13 countries that Colonel Boom's and Fallstreak ships to. What we don't have is a reasonable roadmap and costing for placing our products into the system for the required tests - this all needs to be finalised by 19th November and paid for in advance too.
We have figures from £60k to £500k+ being given to us - just for testing and notification costs. Both figures need to be in the bank and clear before we pay all the rest of our operating costs and even for a small to medium sized established company this is a lot of outlay.
If anyone thinks that TPD will stop disreputable sellers, bedroom mixers who sell homebrew through Fb they are wrong - they will carry on regardless without investing anywhere close to what we, Manabush et-al have done and yet it is we that will bear the full force of regulation to potentially put us out of business.
For the record, food hygiene rating on preparation and inspection for manufacturing along with notification to MHRA would have been welcomed actually - we already have GC-MS testing done to assure quality and consistency. It's the completely invented emissions and toxicology testing imposed that's the big issue, along with the requirement to supply detailed CAS breakdown on products we don't manufacture nor are covered in legislation to require their disclosure.
Food hygeine rated preparation areas, HEPA filtration (in our case ULPA) and all the trimmings to ensure clean and safe manufacture aren't the problem. The main one being the reliance on flavour houses to supply the CAS numbers needed to notify the MHRA of ingredients - most won't play ball. Now the logical thing here would be for the government to accept flavour brand and names as part of notification - if they are already regulating the flavouring industry (if not, why not) then they will already have this data so why put the burden of information on manufacturers who cannot get the required information? It's counter-productive and incredibly restrictive.
Places like Capella are outright refusing to play ball with those that use them, smaller houses won't be able to supply for fear of releasing their unique chemical recipe (which this is asking for)
Having just sunk over £25k on a new facility (and counting, the cleanroom still needs another £5k+ spending to be completed) we are still left in the balance, we have the reputation for quality, we have the processes for clean manufacture, we have the capacity to supply the 13 countries that Colonel Boom's and Fallstreak ships to. What we don't have is a reasonable roadmap and costing for placing our products into the system for the required tests - this all needs to be finalised by 19th November and paid for in advance too.
We have figures from £60k to £500k+ being given to us - just for testing and notification costs. Both figures need to be in the bank and clear before we pay all the rest of our operating costs and even for a small to medium sized established company this is a lot of outlay.
If anyone thinks that TPD will stop disreputable sellers, bedroom mixers who sell homebrew through Fb they are wrong - they will carry on regardless without investing anywhere close to what we, Manabush et-al have done and yet it is we that will bear the full force of regulation to potentially put us out of business.
For the record, food hygiene rating on preparation and inspection for manufacturing along with notification to MHRA would have been welcomed actually - we already have GC-MS testing done to assure quality and consistency. It's the completely invented emissions and toxicology testing imposed that's the big issue, along with the requirement to supply detailed CAS breakdown on products we don't manufacture nor are covered in legislation to require their disclosure.
FWIW, you're not alone (I know you know that). What serious consumers need to do is to support people like you even if that means paying more for compliant juice.
Sad to say you're quite right about the Facebook backroom vendors who should be avoided even with any regs coming in.
Wishing you success in the coming months.
SirLugg
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Yep. It's the 'reputable' manufacturers who've invested heavily already who will be targeted first, simply because you're prominent due to the fact you've invested and you're doing things properly.
I feel for you.
I only hope that as things become clearer that it'll be diluted and thus make it easier for companies like yourselves who've propped the industry up for years.
Colonelboom
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Sadly, my fear is that most of us will be forced to close or find something else to do with the equipment we have amassed by the time any realistic changes are made to the legislation. Even removing the 6 month wait period before bringing products to market would save the majority of businesses as we could all realistically pare down our ranges to the best sellers, pay up front for those to be tested and certified and then drip the rest of the ranges back into market over time again.
We would still have to pay for the testing and notification up front but would not have to sit on that investment for 6 months before making any of the money back.
The ones that will survive will be the ones with very deep pockets, they aren't likely to be the kinds of vendors we see offering real flavour innovation nowadays though. Expect a lot of bit T and Pharma to become prevalent very quickly and consumer choice to reduce significantly. Less choice equals less potential customers which will be another blow on the already struggling juice companies who actually manage to stay ahead.
As bleak as it all sounds (and it potentially is) we are still hopeful that come November we will have everything in place so that next May we can throw a big banner up on the building with all our freshly paid for ECID numbers listed to show we are here to stay - either that or my family is in a cardboard box for a couple of years
We would still have to pay for the testing and notification up front but would not have to sit on that investment for 6 months before making any of the money back.
The ones that will survive will be the ones with very deep pockets, they aren't likely to be the kinds of vendors we see offering real flavour innovation nowadays though. Expect a lot of bit T and Pharma to become prevalent very quickly and consumer choice to reduce significantly. Less choice equals less potential customers which will be another blow on the already struggling juice companies who actually manage to stay ahead.
As bleak as it all sounds (and it potentially is) we are still hopeful that come November we will have everything in place so that next May we can throw a big banner up on the building with all our freshly paid for ECID numbers listed to show we are here to stay - either that or my family is in a cardboard box for a couple of years
Muck777
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Good post @PlumeBlu.
I wasn't aware that you are unable to get the CAS numbers, and I don't think that many other people knew that.
While the retailers and hardware manufacturers will have to make adjustments, the real burden falls on people like yourselves. I think that the juice industry, collectively, really needs to make the public aware of the impact of the TPD on your industry, because at present it seems to be simply unworkable.
Do you know if the UK could relax the requirements, or is it integral in the EU TPD?
I can almost envisage a nightmare scenario where there are only a dozen or so juices available, all made by companies associated with Big Tobacco. That, and bedroom mixers.
I wasn't aware that you are unable to get the CAS numbers, and I don't think that many other people knew that.
While the retailers and hardware manufacturers will have to make adjustments, the real burden falls on people like yourselves. I think that the juice industry, collectively, really needs to make the public aware of the impact of the TPD on your industry, because at present it seems to be simply unworkable.
Do you know if the UK could relax the requirements, or is it integral in the EU TPD?
I can almost envisage a nightmare scenario where there are only a dozen or so juices available, all made by companies associated with Big Tobacco. That, and bedroom mixers.
Colonelboom
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I am waiting on a reply from the MHRA about the missing CAS numbers as I want clarification on the situation should flavour companies be not willing to supply them. Unfortunately the whole juice industry is akin to a headless chicken at the moment trying to get every duck in a row that few of us have even time to talk with each other like we did just a few months ago. Ideally the MHRA will allow supply of flavouring and supplier names should the CAS option be a total roadblock from the supplier side of things.
As far as I can tell, the MHRA have actually used a pretty light touch when it comes to transposing the legislation to UK law but even so there are a few sections of the EU TPD that cannot realistically be interpreted loosely (which is how they have managed to be lighter than other countries) so I doubt there is much in the way of wiggle room.
For us, we have CAS numbers for a lot of the flavours we use and a full GC-MS breakdown of percentages used over 1% - for those flavours we already have the data for notification but it leaves us with chunks missing from other companies that haven't or won't supply theirs. It leaves only a couple of options:
1: reformulate the flavour using houses that are supplying CAS data - this isn't a good solution for us, in By Jove for example we use a few different Rhubarb's to create our stewed flavour and this is not able to be replicated using other flavours with available data (we have tried)
2: drop that flavour from the line, again not ideal when the likes of By Jove is one of our best sellers
3: try to find a flavour house that can replicate the flavour as a custom order - not a cheap option to add to the already mounting costs.
I know of a lot of other companies that are using lots of flavours that the CAS data is just not being offered - infact it was blankly refused by flavour houses. For a reputable business to be placed in such a tight squeeze from all angles is unacceptable and not fair in the slightest. This regulation was meant to keep a track of ingredients for safety and traceability reasons but turned into a method to close the door to many in the industry.
There is a reason that BAT and the like are being investigated by the EU commission for bribery and illegal influence relating to the TPD legislation process. Many of the lobbyists used every tactic they could to swing the legislation toward being harsh on small business as they know they have the financial power and political sway to sweep up the mess and re-invigorate their own dying business model.
