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TPD Draft document

Colonelboom

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ON first reading it's not 'quite' as bad as it first appeared but still imposes the 10ml limit, mechanisms for leak free filling etc and from a juice makers perspective only really a couple of regulations of real note that we don't already (or should already be) complying with.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/440989/SI_tobacco_products_acc.pdf

The 6 month notification for new products will be a pain in the arse, the TCNO data potentially costly but there are clauses allowing data sharing which may ease the burden.
 
I'm still confused by their very specific definitions. Note:

“tobacco product” means a product that can be consumed and consists, even partly, of tobacco;"

“electronic cigarette” means a product that—
(a) can be used for the consumption of nicotine-containing vapour via a mouth piece, or any component of that product, including a cartridge, a tank and the device without cartridge or tank (regardless of whether it is disposable or refillable by means of a refill container and a tank, or rechargeable with single use cartridges), but
(b) is not a medicinal product or medical device;

By their definition, an electronic cigarette is separate from a tobacco product. Not just by the separate definitions, but by the definition itself.

Tell me I'm going crazy.
 
I'm still confused by their very specific definitions. Note:



By their definition, an electronic cigarette is separate from a tobacco product. Not just by the separate definitions, but by the definition itself.

Tell me I'm going crazy.

^ This

I specifically pointed this out at every opportunity I could when I filled it in. For all the good it will do...
 
TW's legal challenge remains the best, indeed the only way to remove electronic cigarettes from the TPD.
The TPD is about Tobacco Control and the use of nicotine by any means, oral, vapour or smoking, is the target. Vaping is part of the problem not part of the solution as far as they're concerned. Misguided zealots!
I doubt that such a fundamental shift is now possible ... picking the bones out of this and that within TPD2 isn't going to do much good, if any.

I sensed a potential wedge when reading the Counterfactual, point 23 on page 7 of the Impact Assessment document. They're crying out for more information about vaping here. An opportunity for some UK implementation variation?

A few numbers which jumped out at me:-
£2.2 billion - the expected reduction in annual revenue for HMRC
£13 billion - the expected financial gain from the additional life years of smokers quitting
1.6% - the expected reduction in the population who are smoking
This strikes me as low, unambitious, trivial and ineffective ... wouldn't they be better off just letting people decide for themselves to vape instead of smoke? Vaping has had a similar effect without any intervention.
 
TW's legal challenge remains the best, indeed the only way to remove electronic cigarettes from the TPD.
The TPD is about Tobacco Control and the use of nicotine by any means, oral, vapour or smoking, is the target. Vaping is part of the problem not part of the solution as far as they're concerned. Misguided zealots!
I doubt that such a fundamental shift is now possible ... picking the bones out of this and that within TPD2 isn't going to do much good, if any.

I sensed a potential wedge when reading the Counterfactual, point 23 on page 7 of the Impact Assessment document. They're crying out for more information about vaping here. An opportunity for some UK implementation variation?

A few numbers which jumped out at me:-
£2.2 billion - the expected reduction in annual revenue for HMRC
£13 billion - the expected financial gain from the additional life years of smokers quitting
1.6% - the expected reduction in the population who are smoking
This strikes me as low, unambitious, trivial and ineffective ... wouldn't they be better off just letting people decide for themselves to vape instead of smoke? Vaping has had a similar effect without any intervention.

The EU directive is above national law, al member states must obey it. The only choice is if the minimum is imposed (which would destroy vaping as we know it, leaving us with cigalikes and maybe new poorly-performing BT devices).
The EU created a nonsense directive because they only listened to ANTZ and good ecig science was only just starting.

Everybody, vaper, smoker, non-smoker, who has any knowledge should complete the impact assessment if there is any hope of the lightest touch allowed, remembering that the MHRA will be responsible organisation in the UK.
So, notification is expensive but much better than authorisation.

It seems that one stupid, impossible part of the TPD isn't mentioned. Deliberate or not, I'd not point that out.
Also it seems that the government thinks that 60& of ecigs used are cigalikes. That was true a few years ago, but now most start with 2nd gen at least. They need the true figures for sales of different device types because their data collection through VAT receipts won't show what is selling and working.

It is time for everybody to accept that this IS happening and WILL be law unless TW succeed in court.
Please, everybody, sign up to supporting the legal challenge regardless of your feelings about TW. They are the only people challenging the legality of the TPD.

Please, everybody, complete the government impact assessment. You don't have to answer all questions, and those directly concerning ecigs are labelled. You can save the form if you can't do it in one go and carry on later.
That's what I've done as I'm putting a lot of thought into my comments.
The more who complete this, the better the chance of us having something to vape even if it a tiny amount of what we have now.
For those who think they're OK as they stockpiled, think of denying smokers the opportunity to stop smoking we had. Also, none of the ingredients last for ever even if frozen. Zero nic vaping will be no different as the definition of an ecig is 'a device or component part that is capable of vaporising nicotine' even if it is always used for zero nic.

The most we can do is try to persuade the government they should do the minimum required by EU law.

Incidentally, I read the 'draft' as saying that claiming vaping is safer than smoking makes that device medical, needing medical authorisation. So it would be illegal to tell the truth.
 
^ This

I specifically pointed this out at every opportunity I could when I filled it in. For all the good it will do...

The reason for a separate category is maybe because it's not a tobacco product.
I understand that pharma grade nic is not extracted from the plant used to make tobacco, but another member of the same family that has a nicotine content too high to be smoked.
There are many plants in the same family including Deadly Nightshade. tomatoes, potatoes and aubergine, but they have very low amounts of nicotine, dietary levels.
I understand the plant used to extract nicotine grows in Asia and each leaf contains 3 to 4 times the quantity in normal tobacco leaves. That's why you have to add nic base to steeped tobacco, one leaf only has about 2 mg of nicotine in it and those leaves are big.

Also the ecig section includes anything that is capable of vapourising a nicotine solution that has a mouthpiece, even if it is only used with zero nic. Maybe the mouthpiece requirement was to prevent kettles being banned?

I have no idea how anything can deliver a 'consistent dose' although the newest temperature controlled devices (which wouldn't exist if the TPD was enforced last year) because vapers, like smokers, self-titrate. Everybody gets a different dose even when everything else is equal. That is probably why NRT has such a low 'success' rate, consistent dose.
 
What's needed here and would be very valuable is for somebody to create bullet points which can facilitate the provision of responses to the Impact Assessment document. Not model answers for cutting and pasteing which will be spotted a mile away by reviewers, just bullet points which can be selected from and reworked using each responders own wording. Making the response personal will count for a lot but asking everyone to create their own wheel from scratch isn't going to gain the maximum response.

I'd also caution against laying a guilt trip on existing vapers who are quite understandably and reasonably taking their own measures to combat the directive. I'm sure it's not what you meant. Vapers are not denying any smoker the opportunity to switch, not even those vapers who decide to do nothing at this point. All smokers have the choice NOW that they've already had for several years and not one vaper should feel responsible for denying this choice to any smoker. Motivation to act here must be primarily a personal thing because the benefits of a light handed implementation will be felt by the person as well as the wider community.

I will definitely provide a response though I'm convinced that its effectiveness will be minimal should the legal challenge fail. If the challenge fails it means that vaping = smoking in the eyes of the law. I wouldn't give a toss what the fine detail says if that's the top line; I will be breaking the law daily because it's bad law.
 
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