Elfbar drops sweet flavours over appeal to kids

[Rickster]

this could apply to selling the disposables in the first place to be fair. it’s very few who have taken a principled stand.

Also clones harm "the rest of the industry" or what's left of it....let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
It's strange that it wasn't really until juice makers noticed a decline in their income that "save the industry" became a thing.

 

[Digbys]

Yes, I think the flavours are nasty.. not my cup of tea at all...
.. and disposables are a format that I don't like (waste of resources etc)...
.. but the credibility is in the form of selling a tobacco harm reduction tool, that other people do like, and choose to use.

No I know, it wasn't meant as bitchy as it sounded. But do remember credibility is decided by consumers.

Personally, I would never sell anything I thought was shit.

 

[MrsAshy]

FWIW, our sales of disposables have been on the decline for a while now...

I see that for 2 main reasons -
People realise that they are not cost effective (for some this takes a while for some reason), and so go back (or start using reusables).
And they are available on every street corner.

This is another reason I wouldnt recommend them. They rapidly become very expensive especially for heavy smokers. I know they help some people but many I know also give up for financial reasons as well as health
Ive taken my sisters to vape shops, bought them an easy set up (with stock coils) Once they found a shortfill they liked they were set

 

[ZT]

Also clones harm "the rest of the industry" or what's left of it....let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
It's strange that it wasn't really until juice makers noticed a decline in their income that "save the industry" became a thing.

TBF - i noticed disposables and thought "thats a bad idea" quite a bit before it had a noticable effect on us as a company

my first posts on the matter are probably findable on this forum - my initial concerns were with the sustainability in a world where we are constantly being told to reduce waste.

It has had a very noticeable effect since that time though.

 

[Rickster]

TBF - i noticed disposables and thought "thats a bad idea" quite a bit before it had a noticable effect on us as a company

my first posts on the matter are probably findable on this forum - my initial concerns were with the sustainability in a world where we are constantly being told to reduce waste.

It has had a very noticeable effect since that time though.

Of course there will be exceptions such as your good selves and maybe a few others....but in general, it did make me wonder.
Every atty/mod maker could come on here n rant about clones harming the industry/them and it would fall on deaf ears..... There is a reason next to none have a presence here.

 

[Digbys]

As if anyone ever thought it was a good idea.

 

[ZT]

Of course there will be exceptions such as your good selves and maybe a few others....but in general, it did make me wonder.
Every atty/mod maker could come on here n rant about clones harming the industry/them and it would fall on deaf ears..... There is a reason next to none have a presence here.

I do hear ya - It did used to get talked about as well! I remember the arguments

I guess the main difference - (not that I'm belittling the plight of the Modders - it must frigging suck to get copied all the time - i know it does when someone nips into your branding or juice ideas). Is the consequences of disposables are more far-reaching than just our individual businesses (though that very much IS a concern itself) - but expand to sustainability, Environment, Underage vaping and - then eventually possibly more draconian regulation - possibly on products that are not even disposable!

 

[Rickster]

I do hear ya - It did used to get talked about as well! I remember the arguments

I guess the main difference - (not that I'm belittling the plight of the Modders - it must frigging suck to get copied all the time - i know it does when someone nips into your branding or juice ideas). Is the consequences of disposables are more far-reaching than just our individual businesses (though that very much IS a concern itself) - but expand to sustainability, Environment, Underage vaping and - then eventually possibly more draconian regulation - possibly on products that are not even disposable!

I fully agree fella, my point is that (and you know) when people mention they are concerned for the industry as a whole (which gets mentioned a lot) in these threads...then be concerned for the industry as a whole support the OG's cos without them there are no clones and stop sticking 10$ clones in your basket....anyhoo I know you know this, just making a point of order

 

[Toby iVapour]

.. then eventually possibly more draconian regulation - possibly on products that are not even disposable!

Judging by the knee-jerk (and corrupt) reaction to vaping globally, I think it was probably on the cards at some point anyway...

And in the UK, we have been living with some kind of threat towards vaping since 2010 (there was a grassroots vaper campaign against the MHRA’s first attempt to medicalise and ban vaping in 2010), so pretty much since the beginning.

Or more simply, the - The cultivation of tactical moral panics through fears about children – case study ‘Juuling’
https://clivebates.com/ten-perverse...-the-sophistry-of-anti-vaping-activists/#s4.5
(from Clive Bates in 2018, about Juul craze in the US, but the principle is still the same)

“Protect the kids”… sounds like a valid rallying cry, but it has become a basis for seeding moral panics. But the children and the panics are a means to an end. Kids have been weaponised in an activist battle to bend the adult world out of shape where it serves an abstinence-only agenda: control of adult behaviours is the primary goal of activism to protect youth. In this world of panics, consumers (adolescents or adults) have little or no agency and make no decisions for themselves, all companies are predatory capitalists determined to hook kids on nicotine, marketing and “kiddie-flavours” are the evil means by which it is done. There is very little reality in this ‘corporate predator’ model of teenage risk behaviours. How would marijuana have become so popular?

Yet there are many things that are dangerous to kids that we do not stop adults doing to protect the children – alcohol use being the most obvious of many. There is a legitimate debate to be had about the appropriate extent of protection of children from risks deemed acceptable in adult society, including whether such protection might compromise growth into fully functioning adults or prompt rebellious counter-measures on the part of the young. My view is that there are a lot more troubling teenage risk behaviours than vaping.

However, even these arguments are too sophisticated for our purposes and, in any case, they are never discussed thoughtfully among tobacco control activists. The anti-vaping activists are struggling with the simple reality that while vaping has risen, smoking has been falling unusually rapidly among adolescents, and much of the adolescent use is occasional and without nicotine (e.g. see US data here and chart below).

Further, if you care about kids, how about listening to them? Young people give ‘harm reduction’ justifications as the most common reasons for vaping when asked (here), and regular vaping – an alternative to smoking – is highly concentrated among young smokers or would-be smokers (here and here). We see a rapid decline in smoking among adults, at least in part attributable to vaping (here), but by what mechanism would this effect start abruptly at 18, and not also contribute to the rapid decline in teen smoking? We also have the economic studies of vaping interactions with smoking when restrictive regulation is applied (here and here ). So despite the ‘children card’ being played relentlessly, it is more likely than not that e-cigarettes function to protect adolescents against smoking and hence are beneficial to teens.

For the activists, young people function as a means to stimulate moral panic, a human shield against criticism, and a mighty sword with which to smite adult freedoms, choices and autonomy. Groups like the inappropriately named Campaign For Tobacco-Free Kids and Truth Initiative have a fabricated an entirely bogus model of the youth at risk – usually depicted as an angelic 12-year-old in soft focus – images designed to raise terror in comfortably middle-class parents. They show no sign of understanding or caring about the real world of adolescent risk behaviours or insight into the lives of the young adolescents at risk. They will never admit that a young person who vapes instead of smoking is a success, or that vaping offers the option of a later route out of smoking for committed young smokers, that marketing vaping and attractive flavours may be pulling kids away from smoking. They are not even curious about whether that might be the case. The activists claiming to act in the interest of kids do not have the backs of the kids really at risk and know little about the kids in question.

 

[Toby iVapour]

.. vaper campaign against the MHRA’s first attempt to medicalise and ban vaping in 2010...

If anyone is interested, here is the archive of the - vaper responses to MLX 364

https://webarchive.nationalarchives...tations/Medicinesconsultations/MLXs/CON065617