Unravelling the TPD, A vapers attempt to understand article 20.

[kermitthefog]

as far as nic goes there must be a route to being able to continue supplying it. lubrisolve posted this on their twitter feed the other day.

 

[tachikoma]

as far as nic goes there must be a route to being able to continue supplying it. lubrisolve posted this on their twitter feed the other day.
View attachment 75607

Interesting, what they announce will decide the course for a lot of people, if they are only allowed to sell 10ml bottles of 20mg for example then it's time to make space in the freezer, if they can continue to sell 72mg in litre bottles, then all is good.

 

[scrumpox]

This is true, It's just my reading of it - the whole thing is fairly fuzzy and this may be one of those things that ends up being decided by case law, but I'm basing my judgement on the fact that all references to nicotine containing liquid refer to the liquid you would find in "Refill Containers" or "Single use cartridges or Tanks" or in other words the actual liquid you would vape - not Nic Base...

I've been saying this for over a year ... and it's not a loophole, it's a question of intent in the drawing up of the law, which was written in a deliberate fashion to allow interpretation.
It'll come down to a simple clarification which the nic suppliers will obtain from DoH/MHRA. As such it's a 50/50 call; some EU countries have already interpreted it to include liquid nic, UK might be more enlightened and see the intent as finished e-liquid for e-cigs and refills.

If the UK implementation decides that liquid nic is outside the regs then we're laughing ... if they decide it's included then the nic suppliers will move to supply it from outside the EU ... and we'll be wearing self-satisfied smirks rather than giggling like teenage girls sat at the back of the bus. I'm not worried at all, in fact I might even go so far as to say that I'm pretty happy about the UK's TPD implementation now. Let them regulate the fuck out of cigalikes and shitty gear, that'll be to everybody's benefit.

 

[drugarth]

On 2 points this is NOT how's it going to be....we in the Netherlands already have the major points of the TPD implemented...and this is what going to happen EU wide with liquid and tanks:
- Nic base will be restricted to 10ml and <20mg......it will be classified as E-liquid
- RTA's, clearomizer will be restricted to 2ml, it's not only cartridges,pre-filled devices which have to comply
for the rest I think you are correct.

On another note: it's only a matter of time before they add taxes and a ban on vaping in public places......

Whta it comes down to for all the nice gear and DIY liquids is: how strict will they check on import from outside EU, if it's bad you better stock up now, if it remains the same, no worries.

Also keep in mind that till november they can still sell the old stock..so we'll probably only feel the hit after that date

 

[Tubbyengineer]

On 2 points this is NOT how's it going to be....we in the Netherlands already have the major points of the TPD implemented...and this is what going to happen EU wide with liquid and tanks:
- Nic base will be restricted to 10ml and <20mg......it will be classified as E-liquid
- RTA's, clearomizer will be restricted to 2ml, it's not only cartridges,pre-filled devices which have to comply
for the rest I think you are correct.

On another note: it's only a matter of time before they add taxes and a ban on vaping in public places......

Whta it comes down to for all the nice gear and DIY liquids is: how strict will they check on import from outside EU, if it's bad you better stock up now, if it remains the same, no worries.

Also keep in mind that till november they can still sell the old stock..so we'll probably only feel the hit after that date

I think this is going to depend on how the text is interpreted by individual governments.

Product requirements
36.—(1) No person may produce or supply an electronic cigarette or a refill container which contains a nicotine-containing liquid unless it complies with paragraphs (2) to (11).

(2) The nicotine-containing liquid must be in— (a) a dedicated refill container not exceeding a volume of 10 millilitres; (b) a disposable electronic cigarette; or (c) a single use cartridge where the cartridge or tank does not exceed a volume of 2 millilitres.
(3) The nicotine-containing liquid may not contain nicotine in excess of 20 milligrams per millilitre.
(4) The nicotine-containing liquid may not contain additives listed in regulation 15 (no vitamins, colourings or certain other additives in tobacco products).
(5) The nicotine-containing liquid must be manufactured using only ingredients of high purity.
(6) Substances other than the ingredients notified under regulation 30, 31 or 32 (as applicable) may not be present in the nicotine-containing liquid unless present in trace levels,
where such trace levels are technically unavoidable during manufacture.
(7) With the exception of nicotine, the ingredients used in the nicotine-containing liquid may not pose a risk to human health in heated or unheated form.
(8) In the case of e-cigarettes, the dose of nicotine must be delivered at consistent levels under normal conditions of use.
(9) The product packaging must be child-resistant and tamper-evident.
(10) The product must be protected against breakage and leakage.
(11) With the exception of disposable e-cigarettes, the product must have a mechanism for ensuring re-filling without leakage.
(12) For the purposes of this regulation, product packaging is tamper-evident if it has one or more indicators or barriers to entry which, if breached or missing can reasonably be
expected to provide visible evidence that the packaging has been opened.

Looking at the text there, the section highlighted in yellow refers specifically to "a single use cartridge where the cartridge or tank does not exceed a volume of 2 millilitres" and is the only section that mentions size restrictions for tanks and it can be reasonably assumed that it means only a "Single use cartridge"

 

[drugarth]

Well if I read those rulings it seems even worse,.than it seems all refillable tanks will be banned, as it states there remain only 3 options where nicotine liquids are allowed, and none of the three describes a refillable tank
A) dedicated refill container aka the liquid bottle..that's not a reffilable tank
B) disposable e-cig...that's not a refillable tank
C) single use cartridges or single use tanks...that's not a refillable tank

It's a bit strange as option A describes liquid bottles and in point 11 they talk about rules for refilling, suggesting that refillable tanks will be allowed.

So I think they will label refillable tanks under option C), I must admit I also think this because that's how the dutch government does it, so other goverments might indeed interpretate this differently

Seeing the alernative, if they stick to the letter of this law, it could be even worse.......but my money is on 2ml tanks...that's also what I hear from alot of vendors......
But indeed that does not make it true

 

[Tubbyengineer]

I just E-mailed Lubrisolve asking if they would change pack sizes for nicotine once it became TPD Compliant heres their answer...

 

[Tubbyengineer]

Well if I read those rulings it seems even worse,.than it seems all refillable tanks will be banned, as it states there remain only 3 options where nicotine liquids are allowed, and none of the three describes a refillable tank
A) dedicated refill container aka the liquid bottle..that's not a reffilable tank
B) disposable e-cig...that's not a refillable tank
C) single use cartridges or single use tanks...that's not a refillable tank

It's a bit strange as option A describes liquid bottles and in point 11 they talk about rules for refilling, suggesting that refillable tanks will be allowed.

So I think they will label refillable tanks under option C), I must admit I also think this because that's how the dutch government does it, so other goverments might indeed interpretate this differently

Seeing the alernative, if they stick to the letter of this law, it could be even worse.......but my money is on 2ml tanks...that's also what I hear from alot of vendors......
But indeed that does not make it true

Ah, I think you're conflating Tank and Atomiser, a tank doesn't have a coil... Atomisers are classed as a component of an E-cig...

 

[srs]

Ah, I think you're conflating Tank and Atomiser, a tank doesn't have a coil... Atomisers are classed as a component of an E-cig...

Good work @Tubbyengineer!

Lots of folks' comments here remind me of your extremely salient point on the other thread we shared over my interpretation of the TPD specifically in relation to 2ml tanks:

..if there's one thing I've learned about legalese it's that the exact definitions are very, very, important

And on the matter of interpretation, you might argue that:

36.—(1) No person may produce or supply an electronic cigarette or a refill container which contains a nicotine-containing liquid unless it complies with paragraphs (2) to (11).

means that RTAs etc are exempt from this clause, since they are not supplied "containing a nicotine-containing liquid"!

 

[Tubbyengineer]

Good work @Tubbyengineer!

Lots of folks' comments here remind me of your extremely salient point on the other thread we shared over my interpretation of the TPD specifically in relation to 2ml tanks:

And on the matter of interpretation, you might argue that:

36.—(1) No person may produce or supply an electronic cigarette or a refill container which contains a nicotine-containing liquid unless it complies with paragraphs (2) to (11).

means that RTAs etc are exempt from this clause, since they are not supplied "containing a nicotine-containing liquid"!

Which is precisely my argument, they aren't mentioned under the regs for anything else - as far as I can tell they are deemed to be a "component" of an E-cigarette, rather than an individual item...