A question about Nicotine strength and Wattage

[Deleted member 54254]

Seriously? We'd just let the air out that windbag and you try to reignite him?

 

[Vapificator]

Hi @oemvapemarket,

thank you for a really decent contribution to the topic.

This is one of the few answers that does not only stay on topic, it also makes good points and genuinely tries to explain these well on an example, exactly what I missed here.
I appreciate this a lot, and I totally agree with everything you said. I just draw a slightly different conclusion from it.
Let me elaborate...

* Vaping 3mg on 60W: This means you're using an e-liquid with a nicotine concentration of 3mg per milliliter, and vaping at 60 watts. You'll likely get a substantial amount of vapor and nicotine delivery.
* Vaping 18mg on 10W: Here, you're using an e-liquid with a nicotine concentration of 18mg per milliliter, and vaping at 10 watts. The vapor production might be lower compared to higher wattages, and the nicotine delivery might be less efficient.

It was kind of addressed in:

1.
[...]
a) "Nic strength is usually higher for MTL than DTL use"
Yes, and the reason for this is in my opinion not mainly that the tank is used either MTL or DTL (today there are many RTAs that can do both depending coil for example Innokin Zenith),
the real reason is that perceived nicotine strength depends mainly on coil(~ resitance) and on wattage.
Of course one need too change juice, wattage, coil, tank of even mod, to reach all ranges for wattage and ohmage, but these are mainly responsible for how much nicotine you inhalte.

Let me quickly summarize your points and respond to them in more detail:
1. Nicotine delivery depends on watts and nic concentration of the juice, two examples given:
a) 3mg per ml nic on 60W: More vapor during inhale (time) ~ more nicotine delivery (output in mg) during inhale (time) from those 3mg per ml -> input juice nic concentration lower but output vapor(=juice amount) higher over time
b) 18mg per ml nic on 10W: Less vapor during inhale (time) ~ less nicotine delivery (output in mg) during inhale (time) from those 18mg per ml -> input juice nic concentration higher but output vapor(=juice amount) lower over time

=> Both have a comparable/similar amount of nicotine atoms (mg) coming out of the chimney during inhale (per second) and finally going into the vaping person's lung (not fully, I will address this soon, but this is the point I make)

How similar they are is a bit subjective and depends on how much vapor actually stays inside the vaping person's lung, which depends on how long they keep it in, so how much vapor gets "wasted", together with self-titration aspects etc.

However these things make it difficult to point out anything accurate, which is why I would like to take them out of the equation for now, just to look at a much simpler question first, which is:

> Given coil/resistance, wattage and nicotine concentration of the juice, how much juice gets evaporated by the coil while heating?

This determines the amount of nicotine (output mass in mg, not concentration) coming out of the chimney as long you hold the fire button and inhale.
Do I still have you with me on this?

So let's go a step further:
Now instead of changing the coil/resistance, wattage and juice at the same time to get a "similar" output in nicotine, let's instead hold two of these three parameters fixed and change only one of them at a time.
What would be the effect of doing so?

I say, it would be a smooth transition without sudden bumps:
- increase juice concentration => higher nicotine(mg) per second (s) <- most obvious case
- Increase in wattage => higher nicotine output(mg) per second (s)
- Increase resistance => lower nicotine output(mg) per second (s)

No matter, if you change wattage, resistance or juice nic concentration gradually in isolation you always get a smooth curve on the chimney's output nicotine amount over time (in mg/s).
This curve that has probably some underlying rule of thumb formula, but at the very least a curve that could be described using some kind of math (Math-Topic: Smooth Curve Fitting).
And this is what I'm talking all about.

If we knew more about how this does works (not exactly but in terms of a approximate curve), we could do for real what this guy:

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/does-higher-wattage-stronger-nicotine-delivery.720431/

tried to do and do it quite accurately:

Once we would understand this as a curve, we can put the removed factors I mentioned before back into the equation, which make it by far less accurate,
but still would allow us to see a smooth trend with these measures (amount of vapor kept in, self-titration, jada jada) factored in, I'll get to it.

The problem is, the only way to find this out requires a lab and coils performance measures, which we have no access to and only coil manufacturers with resources could really obtain them.
And this is the reason why I gave up this idea to figure it out all by myself already, but it doesn't mean, it is not possible to do it and I'm sure someone or some company or some community will do it eventually,
and this will allow everyone of us to get a much better understanding of how said parameters influence the amount of nicotine we inhale, say by having a single puff.

Let's now take a look at this point:

It's important to note that nicotine absorption is a complex process influenced by various factors, including personal tolerance, vaping habits, and device characteristics. If you're concerned about nicotine consumption, it's a good idea to start with a lower nicotine strength and adjust wattage to find the right balance for your preferences and needs.

Absolutely agree with this and everyone does, however it would be the same for the same person, and it is not to dissimilar from person to person as long they inhale the same amount of nicotine.
(how to roughly know this amount relatively, I just explained in dept above)
This was mentioned in:

1.
[...]
b) Self-titration differs between persons
As said "The only reason why I was referring to "normal cig strength", is that you can only tell a position, is by referring to an origin."
Yes, but it is "similar" research and shows that, furthermore research also shows, that nicotine salts show very similar self-tritration characteristics as normal cigs on probands:
https://www.podlyfe.co.uk/blogs/new...m?shpxid=69f02d7b-ecb4-4134-840a-3fcfdaa0990c (the one and only graph in the middle)
https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0887233319304126-gr6_lrg.jpg
https://vape.hk/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/NICOTINE_SALTS_E-LIQUID.pdf

We are able to make - at the very least - an informed guess about how nicotine intake (in mg over time and total) effects a typical persons nicotine rush.
However, we just would have put another problem into the bucket.
Not all inhaled vapor stays in very obviously, but this again is something which you could find out in a study.
And it would be likely be just a function of the calculated nicotine concentration output per puff (in mg/ml) per "keep-it-in-time" (in sec), which varies but the user knows, and the rest is self-titration.
All of this is somewhat dissectible if one really tries, but would require studies and thus resources.
I do not have any of this, but I am just trying to say: It is possible and someone or some company will do it eventually in future and this will allow us to get a much better understanding.

So, it's not a direct equivalence between the two scenarios. The 18mg e-liquid will still contain more nicotine overall, but the 3mg e-liquid vaped at a higher wattage might provide a similar or even stronger nicotine hit due to the increased vapor production and efficiency of nicotine delivery.

From my understanding and all above being said, there must kind of an equivalence between the ends of the scales which can be roughly calculated.
But we miss data and resources to figure out how it works exactly (yet).

So as of now, the best answer to the question is somewhere between these two:

Try looking at it another way. If you vape 10ml of e-liquid in one day at say 18mg nic strength, could be any strength you like, you will consume 180mg of nicotine in that one day.
If you lower your wattage and dont get thru the 10ml you wont consume as much nic. Same if you increase it.
Different pods/tanks/coils will all work slightly differently, some are more thirstier than others.
As @Rickster said, at the end of the day, does it really matter weather you consume 120mg of nic or 100mg in a day.

Why don't you just have a toot whenever you feel like it and not worry about how much you've consumed. Just enjoy it and be thankful you're vaping and not smoking.

(Thanks guys again for making these points. They will be best answers for now, especially for everyone not wanting to deep dive as much as I did here.)

Always remember that nicotine is an addictive substance, and it's important to vape responsibly.

Of course yes, totally agreed, and I do not want anyone to increase their nicotine intake. I aim for quite the opposite with this.
I just would like we would have a better understanding about how to do so, without too much beginner mistakes and guessing around.
Because people read things on the internet like this:

An average cigarette gives approximately 8mg of nic, an eliquid tells you, ie 18mg is 18mg per millilitre but this is all relative to how you smoke a cigarette, I doubt most are lashed to one like a laboratory beagle.

because of the lack of better answers available and then buy a high wattage sub-ohm kit firing it up with 18mg/ml concentrated liquid at 100W.

This all wasn't that bad, if there weren't nic salts involved, but they make said combination even bearable.
Nic salts are helping many people to quit smoking easier and thus they are a good thing after all.

However, there are big companies trying to push even more nicotine through their devices than cigarettes do *Juul* *cough*
to make people more addicted to their products and due to the lack of understanding nicotine in vape, people fall into that trap easier.

My point is most people do not have a good understanding what the numbers mean they get presented and this has a good reason.
Nicotine juice concentration in mg/ml is not very helpful on its own, because what really matters is the amount of juice inhaled and kept inside of our lungs.
We could help with understanding this better, but we don't (want to).

And it seems people on this forum do not really like to discuss this topic at all.
Instead of ignoring something not interesting for them, many prefer turning the topic down or just trolling around.

However I get that this issue is always problematic, since "every thing nicotine related" causes legal trouble for the vaping industry and so implies trouble for the vaping community.

I do not know which one it is, but this entire thread speaks for itself.

I'm convinced, that openness and transparency on the topic together with a scientific approach could yield a much better understanding for everyone involved.

I do not want to waste any more time swimming against the stream.

I get that discussing these things does simply not work over here, so I'd like to stop it now and let it be.

Seriously? We'd just let the air out that windbag and you try to reignite him?

You have heard it, so I guess we shall stop replying to this thread for good.

 

[John R Phillips]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

 

[zouzounaki]

surely you just need to remember how much liquid you puffed, and multiply it by the nic strength?

10ml of 12mg puffed. 10 x 12 = 120mg of nic inhaled. no?

anything else is madness