Petition to stop extra duty on vape products

[Toby iVapour]

Also they can't see that underage vaping = less youth smoking.

Im no so sure about that, it could be argued that youths who would never have smoked take up vaping because it's there.

i think for most youngsters vaping is not related to smoking, or necessarily to do with nicotine. it is a craze, and it is that way because of how the vape industry has marketed vapes.

The evidence doesn't seem to point to that... (although may be true in some cases)

From Clive Bates -

Bringing the flamethrower of reform to FDA's Center for Tobacco Products - The Counterfactual

FDA's approach to tobacco and nicotine regulation should be a high priority for reformers of the federal bureaucracy. FDA's Center for Tobacco Products manages to combine near complete regulatory failure with vast costs to the regulated industries and to the FDA.

clivebates.com

A range of studies now suggests smoking and vaping are substitutes, that vaping displaces smoking for some young people, and that the most intensive teenage vapers are those who would otherwise have been smoking. Measures to prevent vaping may increase smoking, illicit trade, or promote workarounds.

Here is his briefing on youth vaping for a more complete analysis with sources.

 

[zouzounaki]

The evidence doesn't seem to point to that... (although may be true in some cases)

From Clive Bates -

Bringing the flamethrower of reform to FDA's Center for Tobacco Products - The Counterfactual

FDA's approach to tobacco and nicotine regulation should be a high priority for reformers of the federal bureaucracy. FDA's Center for Tobacco Products manages to combine near complete regulatory failure with vast costs to the regulated industries and to the FDA.

clivebates.com

Here is his briefing on youth vaping for a more complete analysis with sources.

i don’t think the evidence points to something else. the huge rise in youngsters vaping happened in 2020 or 21 when disposables blew up. smoking had been on the decrease for decades amongst youngsters at that point.

notice how bates says “some” in his theory.

 

[Toby iVapour]

i obvs don’t condone the current hysteria but you can’t say it isn’t understandable why it’s happening.

Yes, it is understandable why it's happening because it is simply naive moral panic due to a number of factors, but mainly due to years of negative vape propaganda in the mainstream press, and ignorance.

(I've linked this elsewhere), but even the Guardian is finally coming round -

In the moral panic over vaping, we risk forgetting that cigarettes kill | Martha Gill

Bans and taxes on the most popular and effective aid for giving up smoking could lead to a major health crisis

www.theguardian.com

i don’t think the evidence points to something else. the huge rise in youngsters vaping happened in 2020 or 21 when disposables blew up. smoking had been on the decrease for decades amongst youngsters at that point.

From Clive Bates' youth vaping briefing pdf in previous post -

https://clivebates.com/documents/EB3youth.pdf

Most youth ENDS use is experimental and temporary. Most youth who ever try ENDS do not persist in using them currently. In both the US and the UK, just under half of youth who had ever tried ENDS continued to use them 1+ times in the past 30 days. Similarly, in the UK, over 60% of youth who used ENDS had either used them only once or twice or had used them more but discontinued them. These patterns of temporary experimentation align with youths’ stated reasons for ever using ENDS, which are most often curiosity/experimentation, boredom, and social reasons.

ENDS use is concentrated in youth who had (or would have) used other nicotine products. US youth with an established history of other nicotine product use were over five times as likely to have used ENDS in the past 30 days.70% of UK youth who were currently using ENDS had a history of cigarette smoking. ENDS use that is frequent and/or is accompanied by nicotine dependence is even more strongly concentrated in those who had already used cigarettes or other nicotine products: approximately 98% of US youth who used ENDS frequently had used another nicotine product. Youth who vape have risk factors that also predispose them to smoke cigarettes, suggesting that they would have otherwise been cigarette smokers.

Higher youth ENDS use is accompanied by larger declines in smoking, suggesting displacement rather than gateway. If ENDS were a gateway to cigarette smoking, then youth smoking trends would be higher than otherwise expected as ENDS use increases. However, population-level studies show the opposite: youth and young adult smoking prevalence declined faster after ENDS use became common, and this pattern is remarkably consistent across countries, including the US, UK, Canada, and New Zealand. These declines have been drastic and unexpected: in the US, actual youth smoking in 2020 was far lower (3.3%) than what was thought possible in 2010, according to the US Healthy People target for 2020 (16%). These trends are consistent with ENDS diverting youth with a predisposition for nicotine use away from more harmful combustible cigarettes.

(ENDS = Electronic Nicotine Delivery System)

 

[zouzounaki]

Yes, it is understandable why it's happening because it is simply naive moral panic due to a number of factors, but mainly due to years of negative vape propaganda in the mainstream press, and ignorance.

(I've linked this elsewhere), but even the Guardian is finally coming round -

In the moral panic over vaping, we risk forgetting that cigarettes kill | Martha Gill

Bans and taxes on the most popular and effective aid for giving up smoking could lead to a major health crisis

www.theguardian.com

From Clive Bates' youth vaping briefing pdf in previous post -

https://clivebates.com/documents/EB3youth.pdf

(ENDS = Electronic Nicotine Delivery System)

i don’t think we disagree about the stupidity of the sin tax on vaping. where it seems we have a different view is about how we got to this point. there is a chicken and egg thing. you can use the search and find debates on here ten years ago about the marketing and advertising of vape liquid. what is happening now is confirmation of what people were saying then. so i’m not surprised we have ended up where we are.

as for what clive bates says, aye it is probably true but you can say the same about heroin. it will not get us anywhere.

 

[Toby iVapour]

.. about the marketing and advertising of vape liquid. what is happening now is confirmation of what people were saying then. so i’m not surprised we have ended up where we are.

Yes, I agree that some of the marketing of e-liquid has been downright irresponsible (and has effectively shot the vape industry in the foot), but I'm not surprised we have ended up where we are because they (the authorities) have been trying to restrict vapes in the UK right since the beginning (of a certain amount of popularity of vapes) when the MHRA tried to class vapes as a medicinal product back in 2010. Luckily they failed (after much opposition from vapers).

as for what clive bates says, aye it is probably true but you can say the same about heroin. it will not get us anywhere.

Well it is pretty much almost certainly true that vaping is concentrated in youth who had (or would have) used other nicotine products (the sources are on the pdf)...
.. but I think we can save the comparison between nicotine and heroin argument on whatever thread that was that went on for many pages...

 

[zouzounaki]

Well it is pretty much almost certainly true that vaping is concentrated in youth who had (or would have) used other nicotine products (the sources are on the pdf)...

post the sources here so we can see them. i don’t think this is true.

and the heroin comparison is valid. casual users vastly out number addicts. if anything nic is much more of a sure shot to addict people.

 

[Toby iVapour]

post the sources here so we can see them. i don’t think this is true.

CBA.. if people want to check out the sources, then they can look at the pdf...
https://clivebates.com/documents/EB3youth.pdf
There are 40 sources with links on there (about 20 of them are referred to in what I quoted in the pdf)

and the heroin comparison is valid. casual users vastly out number addicts.

I have never heard of that statistic...