Smoking to be banned in UK prisons

[steffijade]

It's my understanding that usually the ones who do nasty things to children tend to end up dead in prison, so long as they are in gen pop. I think in the news recently there was a murder of a child molester. But if someone takes away someone else's right to live, then it really irks that they still have a right to luxuries such as Sky TV and playstations, etc, or in truly terrible crimes, the right to protection from the state. I suppose of course that the issue arises when we have to decide what's truly terrible and what is understandable (albeit not excusable). B*gger having that responsibility!

I agree it can sometimes be annoying to think that prisoners might be having a cushty time at the taxpayer's expense but what are the alternatives? Bread and water? Enforced labour? Treating prisoners as inferior, second class citizens isn't the answer (just my opinion for what it's worth). What is the nature of imprisonment anyway? Is it a means of rehabilitation? Is it there to segregate lawbreakers from the rest of us? Is it just punishment for the sake of punishment and what does it say about us as a society that we might feel the need to classify prisoners as somehow sub-human?

Anyone can stray close to the line of lawbreaking... sometimes all it takes is enough provocation for a normally law abiding citizen to snap and take the law into their own hands. It could happen to any of us here in the space of a few seconds and then we would be part of this sub classification too. Would we think we deserved to be treated differently to 'normal' people if it happened to us? ......there but for the grace of god go I.

 

[WhichWitch]

I agree it can sometimes be annoying to think that prisoners might be having a cushty time at the taxpayer's expense but what are the alternatives? Bread and water? Enforced labour? Treating prisoners as inferior, second class citizens isn't the answer (just my opinion for what it's worth). What is the nature of imprisonment anyway? Is it a means of rehabilitation? Is it there to segregate lawbreakers from the rest of us? Is it just punishment for the sake of punishment and what does it say about us as a society that we might feel the need to classify prisoners as somehow sub-human?

Anyone can stray close to the line of lawbreaking... sometimes all it takes is enough provocation for a normally law abiding citizen to snap and take the law into their own hands. It could happen to any of us here in the space of a few seconds and then we would be part of this sub classification too. Would we think we deserved to be treated differently to 'normal' people if it happened to us? ......there but for the grace of god go I.

But if someone commits an inhuman act, what does it say about society if it treats them as anything less than subhuman? I'm not talking about misdemeanors, mistakes or crimes of passion, but continued and/or vile crimes (like serial rapists/murderers and those who are particularly nasty to children). Why shouldn't these people be separated from society and punished, for the sake of doing just that, rather than giving them access to resources which people who don't commit crimes don't have access to. There's a danger of treating criminals better than their victims.

 

[steffijade]

But if someone commits an inhuman act, what does it say about society if it treats them as anything less than subhuman? I'm not talking about misdemeanors, mistakes or crimes of passion, but continued and/or vile crimes (like serial rapists/murderers and those who are particularly nasty to children). Why shouldn't these people be separated from society and punished, for the sake of doing just that, rather than giving them access to resources which people who don't commit crimes don't have access to. There's a danger of treating criminals better than their victims.

I can understand and respect your point of view but I think it would be better to try and diminish the root causes of a lot of 'petty' crimes. There are too many people who feel disenfranchised, disempowered, ignored and so far adrift from what our consumer society tells them they should be. If everyone had the opportunity to work and earn a living (and I mean at a level that would allow them to own their own homes and live in them without getting up to their eyeballs in debt) then I think a lot of people would have a different outlook and approach to their lives. They would feel less excluded and actually want to contribute to bettering society rather than wanting to rebel against it and/or take shortcuts to try and achieve what our society tells them they should aspire to.

As to the more extreme lawbreakers, I don't have a definitive answer... I don't think anyone does, other than the eye for an eye and hang em high approach, which doesn't address the root causes as to why these people are the way they are. I'd (generally) favour an approach that seeks to try and rehabilitate offenders (if at all possible) rather than just punish them for the sake of it. After all... people can and do change and people are, in the large part, a product of their environment. If their environment teaches them that they're sub human and there's no possibility of rehabilitation then how can we expect them to even want to try and change?

It's a wiggly can of worms and I apologise if it's a bit deep for a Sunday, but things like this prey on my mind at times.

 

[WhichWitch]

I can understand and respect your point of view but I think it would be better to try and diminish the root causes of a lot of 'petty' crimes. There are too many people who feel disenfranchised, disempowered, ignored and so far adrift from what our consumer society tells them they should be. If everyone had the opportunity to work and earn a living (and I mean at a level that would allow them to own their own homes and live in them without getting up to their eyeballs in debt) then I think a lot of people would have a different outlook and approach to their lives. They would feel less excluded and actually want to contribute to bettering society rather than wanting to rebel against it and/or take shortcuts to try and achieve what our society tells them they should aspire to.

As to the more extreme lawbreakers, I don't have a definitive answer... I don't think anyone does, other than the eye for an eye and hang em high approach, which doesn't address the root causes as to why these people are the way they are. I'd (generally) favour an approach that seeks to try and rehabilitate offenders (if at all possible) rather than just punish them for the sake of it. After all... people can and do change and people are, in the large part, a product of their environment. If their environment teaches them that they're sub human and there's no possibility of rehabilitation then how can we expect them to even want to try and change?

It's a wiggly can of worms and I apologise if it's a bit deep for a Sunday, but things like this prey on my mind at times.

Whilst I'm not recommending my admittedly Draconian approach for petty crimes, it still irritates me that people do not take responsibility for themselves. Everybody has something to complain about (we're British, after all!), and everybody can at times feel disenfranchised, unfairly treated, etc etc. But it's up to us as individuals to do something about it, and to take responsibility for our own emotions. You said that people turn to crime because they don't own their own home, or because they've had issues, or they don't agree with society's agenda. I don't own my own home, and am in quite uncomfortable levels of debt, but you don't see me using that as an excuse to commit crimes. I come from a broken home, have had very close friends and family die for all sorts of terrible reasons when I was growing up, and had issues of my own to deal with, the like of which the average person would be unlucky to have to deal with just once in their lives. But I have used those 'negative' experiences to learn and grow as a person. I don't feel any particular sense of kinship with the mass of society today, nor with its values. But I still hope to make a valid contribution to that society, to act in a way which is ethical, and to take full and complete responsibility for myself, my actions and my emotions. People will continue to want and take and find excuses regardless of whatever utopian society we live in. But while we molly coddle people who commit crimes, we are not encouraging them to take responsibility for themselves, but instead we are treating them as victims. Surely that disempowers them further, and prevents them from learning from the mistakes they make?

Apologies for the rant!

 

[Roadhoguk]

Humans will be humans, some are strong and can climb above the mire, some are weak and can not, those that are strong use the experiences of life`s less appealing events as a stepping stone to elevate themselves out of it, others are not able to do that and find themselves with difficult choices, the easy one is usually illegal, its not really about about "i have no home".."I have no money" no friends, whatever, its about you and how you value your life, many times in court I have heard the Defense argue of a bad Childhood, or they were going through a rough spot at the time before sentencing, at the end of the day though, when all facts are laid bare, it`s the persons strength of character that will determine what happens with any given situation, but I digress from the OP`s topic, whatever society at large thinks of these people and for whatever crime they they committed to find themselves incarcerated in Prison lets not forget one very important fact, society at large = the World in general, it`s pretty big you know Prison = a very small building with an awful lot of troubled people, take away something that helps keep them calm and replacing it with NRT imho is going to stir the pot a tad within those walls.

 

[WhichWitch]

Humans will be humans, some are strong and can climb above the mire, some are weak and can not, those that are strong use the experiences of life`s less appealing events as a stepping stone to elevate themselves out of it, others are not able to do that and find themselves with difficult choices, the easy one is usually illegal, its not really about about "i have no home".."I have no money" no friends, whatever, its about you and how you value your life, many times in court I have heard the Defense argue of a bad Childhood, or they were going through a rough spot at the time before sentencing, at the end of the day though, when all facts are laid bare, it`s the persons strength of character that will determine what happens with any given situation, but I digress from the OP`s topic, whatever society at large thinks of these people and for whatever crime they they committed to find themselves incarcerated in Prison lets not forget one very important fact, society at large = the World in general, it`s pretty big you know Prison = a very small building with an awful lot of troubled people, take away something that helps keep them calm and replacing it with NRT imho is going to stir the pot a tad within those walls.

Sorry, gone a bit off topic! Thanks RoadHog for bringing it back!

It will be interesting to see what comes of it - I really can't see it actually happening because, as Roadhog just said, it's going to create far too many issues.

 

[Mark]

My only real concern is for order in the prison and the safety of staff if I'm honest. The efficacy of the prison system, the appropriateness of custody as a sentence, reoffending rates etc is a whole different ball game. It's considered a last resort and 'protects' the public for a short time (or longer obviously but most sentences are less than 5 yrs) and that's about it.

 

[KittyKat]

FCUKING HELL! In the words of the Kaiser Chiefs - I predict a riot!

The last time I was in one of Her Majesty's Prisons (on business, i hasten to add, not as a guest!) the wing governor was shitting himself that the prisoners had to be locked down over the start of lunch serving. In his words, "They'll go fucking potty!". I can only imagine the scenes if they ban smoking! As you quite rightly say - nice tube, could be sharpened up quite nicely. Also, it is probably fair to say that since the "reform" of mental health care in this country, prisons look after a high percentage of people with mental health issues - I seem to remember reading that it believed that the high instances of heavy smoking in patients suffering from schizophrenia may be as a result of them "self medicating" with nicotine via ciggies (bit of info' here).

Can't see this being a popular move by any stretch of the imagination on both sides of the equation!

I work in mental health... Heavy smoking reduces some of the nasty side effects of antipsychotic meds... Taking cig goes away from mentally ill inmates is not a good idea... I'm sure it will be tough on inmates and staff alike... I wouldn't want to be there for the fallout!

 

[EthelKing]

I work in mental health... Heavy smoking reduces some of the nasty side effects of antipsychotic meds... Taking cig goes away from mentally ill inmates is not a good idea... I'm sure it will be tough on inmates and staff alike... I wouldn't want to be there for the fallout!

I find this very interesting KittyKat - it's something I've always noticed, but never thought anything much of, to be honest. How does the "no smoking" thing work in secure wards etc.? I know our acute admissions unit is secure until one of the fire break glasses are broken and then all of the doors unlock - but that seems a bit extreme for going outside for a smoke - do secure mental health wards have dispensation from the no smoking legislation? I know I'm going off topic a bit, but it seems bloody unfair that when a patient is sectioned they do not have the right to smoke if that is their choice. My knowledge of mental health issues and care is, at best, basic, so apologies if my question comes across as ignorant.

 

[KittyKat]

I find this very interesting KittyKat - it's something I've always noticed, but never thought anything much of, to be honest. How does the "no smoking" thing work in secure wards etc.? I know our acute admissions unit is secure until one of the fire break glasses are broken and then all of the doors unlock - but that seems a bit extreme for going outside for a smoke - do secure mental health wards have dispensation from the no smoking legislation? I know I'm going off topic a bit, but it seems bloody unfair that when a patient is sectioned they do not have the right to smoke if that is their choice. My knowledge of mental health issues and care is, at best, basic, so apologies if my question comes across as ignorant.

I don't spend much time on the secure wards, but to my knowledge there are designated smoking areas within the confines of the unit, however I can only really speak of local arrangements within a fairly new building built for purpose... Other areas may be different. It's well known about the relationship between smoking and meds... There are similar studies on caffeine too.