Unravelling the TPD, A vapers attempt to understand article 20.

[kingfony]

People vaping 20mg nic is not a problem, many people are vaping 24mg or stronger now.

Agreed but not when sold to be diluted as a 1.5mg or 3mg strength with a bottle of flavouring.

 

[oldhippydude]

Agreed but not when sold to be diluted as a 1.5mg or 3mg strength with a bottle of flavouring.

I still fail to see the problem.If people choose to pay for flavours they do not use. If they do not understand the strength of the juice they may get a harsh hit.
The flavour will not be sold to add to the e-juice.
Presumably it will be for making tobacco and menthol flavoured cupcakes or to be used as zero nic juice.
Adding it to your 20mg nic will be a matter of taking personal responsibility, always a good thing in my book.

 

[Crewella]

With regard to nicotine concentrate, I'm tending to agree that whilst the producers might be able to sell nic concentrate in bigger bottles, they might not be able to do so to the general public. OH does pest control, and we're allowed to buy poisons and insecticides that are 10 x stronger than what can be sold over the counter to the general public (but still has to have a full safety data sheet), so that is beginning to sound like familiar territory to me and would make sense?

 

[pfvapes]

This is about to get ranty (again, please feel free to just scroll past this wall of text and get back to the good stuff). I feel that I should state that I work for the NHS as a senior pharmacy technician in a mental health trust. In the past I have worked in general hospital, including those that (among other things) specialise in cancer and respiratory conditions. Most costs below are approximate, but should be somewhere in the ball park, I don't have exact numbers to hand.

The thing that bugs me with the people living longer argument is that, and this is speaking from professional experience, cancer drugs are really expensive, someone on a course of chemotherapy could be on four different drugs, each potentially costing up to £1000 each. Over six cycles of chemo adds up to a lot. That's before you add on the specialist nursing care, someone like me to prepare the chemo drugs, the cost of all the other medication, just to make the side effects of the chemo bearable, the diagnostic tests and scans, palliative (end of life) care, even wigs (which you can get on the NHS) and that's before you get to the stuff the NHS doesn't pay for, McMillan nurses, .

If you compare that to other "old people problems" e.g. heart disease, asthma (COPD to a certain extent some of the specialist inhalers are still very expensive ~£80 a month, but I'll get to that in a moment), arthritis, blood pressure and even dementia (again this is borderline cost wise depending on the severity of the patient and level of care needed), these are easily diagnosed - x-rays, blood tests, physical exam or just speaking to the patient, and the drugs to treat these are cheap. We're talking pence per month per drug. As an example, my grandma had a fall a few years ago, broke her hip, was replaced under local aesthetic, one night in hospital, out and done. The drugs that she takes to treat the reasons why she fell over and broke her hip, probably cost less than £1.50 a month.

I'd be interested if someone who has done the maths, to see if we didn't have to treat the smoking related illnesses i.e. if no-one in the UK smoked, ( by which I mean mainly cancer and COPD how much we'd save compared to if these patients lived to a ripe old age and just suffered "normal old people health problems"? If hypothetically, everyone that smoked quit, started vaping (and still putting money into the economy) how much of a dent that would put in the tax revenue vs the money saved by the NHS?

Unfortunately the drug companies don't make their profits from selling aspirin (less than 1p per month), furosemide (pence per month) and calcium tablets (maybe 50p, possibly a bit more a month). It's from new cancer (and other "sexy" conditions) drugs that they still hold the exclusive marketing rights for.

So it looks like it's a triple threat match between HMRC, big tobacco and big pharma, and sadly it's us, who are trying to do the right, thing are stuck slap bang in the middle because the three bodies above don't want to loose out on their slice of the pie.

Dude, I hope you meant general anesthetic? Either that or your gran is hard fucking core!

 

[Tubbyengineer]

Yep, got those - the answer I'm currently looking for is the clarification of the 2ml tank size, is it as the reg reads only applicable to single use tanks that come prefilled or does it include atomisers like the Subtank - Since it would appear from the definition of an E-cigarette that these would be seen as a component of an E-cigarette not as a tank in their own right...

Try Department of Health...

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-of-health

Sent...

Well I finally got the reply back from the department of health...


Our ref: DE-1011911

Dear Mr Baker,

Thank you for your correspondence of 15 January about the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. I have been asked to reply.

As you may know the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 is a statutory instrument. The Regulations pertain to the Tobacco Products Directive (TPD), which was agreed by Member States and the European Parliament and published in April 2014, will apply in the UK from 20 May.

The Department can confirm that the TPD does not prohibit any specific type of device, including tank devices and variable wattage devices. Whilst tanks will be limited to 2ml in size, and rules to make refill mechanisms ‘leak free’ will be introduced, consumers will remain able to purchase tank devices and separate e-liquids. In implementing the new EU rules the Government intends to work towards regulation that will permit a range of products that people want to use.


I hope this reply is helpful.


Yours sincerely,

Nicholas Curry
Ministerial Correspondence and Public Enquiries
Department of Health

Confirmation direct from the source - As we all suspected but hoped it wouldn't be - All tanks 2ml...

Now just to hope that the "As delivered" loophole doesn't get closed...

 

[kris73]

Anyone else get the feeling that our government really doesn't want to enforce this crap?

 

[johnnylager]

I'd be interested if someone who has done the maths, to see if we didn't have to treat the smoking related illnesses i.e. if no-one in the UK smoked, ( by which I mean mainly cancer and COPD how much we'd save compared to if these patients lived to a ripe old age and just suffered "normal old people health problems"? If hypothetically, everyone that smoked quit, started vaping (and still putting money into the economy) how much of a dent that would put in the tax revenue vs the money saved by the NHS?

Unfortunately the drug companies don't make their profits from selling aspirin (less than 1p per month), furosemide (pence per month) and calcium tablets (maybe 50p, possibly a bit more a month). It's from new cancer (and other "sexy" conditions) drugs that they still hold the exclusive marketing rights for.

So it looks like it's a triple threat match between HMRC, big tobacco and big pharma, and sadly it's us, who are trying to do the right, thing are stuck slap bang in the middle because the three bodies above don't want to loose out on their slice of the pie.

ASH say the cost of smoking and everything related to it (healthcare, fires, lost work days, cheeky fag breaks, anything they can tag on to make it higher) is c£14 billion, but omits the reduction in benefits paid to those who die early. The TMA say tobacco tax revenue is c£12 billion, so the net cost of smoking seems to be c£2 billion.

My tinfoil hat says that the profit of tobacco companies (and therefore their shareholders), estimated at between £1.1 - £1.8 billion is more of a reason for the anti-vaping stance. Then there's big pharma who, it could be argued, are set to lose revenue from both (less effective than vaping) cessation aids and treatments for smoking related illness.

 

[stewbacca]

Dude, I hope you meant general anesthetic? Either that or your gran is hard fucking core!

Na mate, local, I quote " I felt a bit of pushing and pulling but is was OK".

I used to live with a couple of orthopaedic doctors, who said it was more like carpentry than medicine (power tools and all)!

 

[dansus]

Overview from ASH on TPD impact in UK.

http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_1011.pdf

 

[Jugg1es]

Na mate, local, I quote " I felt a bit of pushing and pulling but is was OK".

I used to live with a couple of orthopaedic doctors, who said it was more like carpentry than medicine (power tools and all)!

I've got a restraining video around here somewhere that shows a hip replacement amongst other ops, all I can say is i wanna be out fucking cold if i need one.