Unravelling the TPD, A vapers attempt to understand article 20.

[scrumpox]

What Dave Dorn said seems to conflict with the views coming from the nic suppliers ... but let's assume that is the case.
We will be able to buy concentrated nic in volume (ie litres of 72mg/ml) until midnight on 19th May 2017, thereafter only in 10ml bottles of 20mg/ml.
DIYers therefore have 16 months to sort out their personal nicotine stashes.

From 20th May 2017 onwards we will be buying concentrated nic in volume from those same nic suppliers who will ensure the commercial transaction takes place outside the EU. It won't be illegal for DIYers to buy it or to own it. It remains to be seen whether the nic suppliers maintain current pricing levels.

There will be no restiction on the selling or purchasing of flavourings or diluents (PG and VG).
All zero nic premade juices are outside of the regulations ... no testing or registration fees for juice manufacturers on these, no restriction on the bottle size.

Regulations and the cost of compliance apply to e-juice that contains nicotine; one SKU for each flavour and strength sold, or each variance of VG/PG unless the manufacturer can prove that there is no difference in the emissions caused by varying the VG/PG ratio. This is a straightforward business decision for each juice manufacturer and the costs of compliance/registration will have to be passed onto the consumer.

The fees for testing and registration will be borne by the manufacturer/importer not the juice retailers - unless the retailer is rebranding. (By retailer I mean a reseller of juice manufacturered by others.)

What are we worried about? Millions of 10ml bottles going into landfill.

 

[stewbacca]

This video is probably the most useful thing I've read/watched about TPD. If you haven't watched it yet I strongly suggest you do, even though it is quite lengthy.

Personally, my main worry is juice. However, the way I understand it is that the easiest way round the regulations is that the juice maker (ie whoever pays the MHRA registration fee) makes one product, a 10ml bottle of 20mg nic liquid with no flavour that they pay the fee for. They then make 1 or 5 or 10 or 20 etc etc different flavours with 0mg nic, paying no fee, in whatever size, 30ml, 100ml, a pint a bucket etc and you buy your 0mg and you buy your 20mg and mix to your own personal requirement. By the time the brown stuff hits the spinny thing I'll be sorted for mods, tanks, drippers etc.

But we musn't be selfish.

However, I worry about two groups of people. Firstly people who want to quit smoking, traditional NRT doesn't cut it for them, they want to try vaping, but it's such a faff under the new regs that either the kit or the price is prohibative. I'm guessing that when big tobacco get their grubby paws on it a bottle of juice will be much closer to the cost of a packet of fags than it is now and a lot of people (me included to a certain extent) started vaping because a it's cheaper (was cheaper anyway) and b physically blowing stuff out your mouth.

The second group I worry about is people like my dad. He has a CE4 and uses and that's fine for him, however he's 75, arthritic and while he can currently order what he wants for cheap from the internet, use it, and feel better than when he smoked, and get nagged less by my mum. But I have no doubt that if his vaping gets more expensive or complicated he'll have no problem going back to smoking.

I should also mention that Dad only started vaping because on a day out in the Big Smoke they randomly walked past a B&M and thought "hmm, let's go and see what this is all about." and he can't be the only one. What will happen to these people who would/could potentially find vaping on a whim if there are fewer B&Ms on the high street. If the B&M was a "hobby" type store, catering for the high end and so cloudy you can't see the counter from the door, I'd bet my last fiver that he wouldn't have gone in, and would still be smoking a pack of cigars a day. Luckily, it was more of a "come in and get something to help give up smoking" type place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is both groups need vaping as much as vaping needs them and TPD has the potential to drive a huge wedge between the industry and the punters.

And this post has become a small essay. Sorry about that apes. I don't expect any replies to this. Sometimes it's just good to write down thoughts (no matter how incoherently).

 

[JBG]

Yes it was a long post, but valid. You're right, the concession stands that I saw in the shopping centre was where I first heard/saw vaping.. I dare say there's others the same.

I remember walking away thinking... It will never catch on..

Lol

 

[kingfony]

This video is probably the most useful thing I've read/watched about TPD. If you haven't watched it yet I strongly suggest you do, even though it is quite lengthy.

Personally, my main worry is juice. However, the way I understand it is that the easiest way round the regulations is that the juice maker (ie whoever pays the MHRA registration fee) makes one product, a 10ml bottle of 20mg nic liquid with no flavour that they pay the fee for. They then make 1 or 5 or 10 or 20 etc etc different flavours with 0mg nic, paying no fee, in whatever size, 30ml, 100ml, a pint a bucket etc and you buy your 0mg and you buy your 20mg and mix to your own personal requirement. By the time the brown stuff hits the spinny thing I'll be sorted for mods, tanks, drippers etc.

But we musn't be selfish.

However, I worry about two groups of people. Firstly people who want to quit smoking, traditional NRT doesn't cut it for them, they want to try vaping, but it's such a faff under the new regs that either the kit or the price is prohibative. I'm guessing that when big tobacco get their grubby paws on it a bottle of juice will be much closer to the cost of a packet of fags than it is now and a lot of people (me included to a certain extent) started vaping because a it's cheaper (was cheaper anyway) and b physically blowing stuff out your mouth.

The second group I worry about is people like my dad. He has a CE4 and uses and that's fine for him, however he's 75, arthritic and while he can currently order what he wants for cheap from the internet, use it, and feel better than when he smoked, and get nagged less by my mum. But I have no doubt that if his vaping gets more expensive or complicated he'll have no problem going back to smoking.

I should also mention that Dad only started vaping because on a day out in the Big Smoke they randomly walked past a B&M and thought "hmm, let's go and see what this is all about." and he can't be the only one. What will happen to these people who would/could potentially find vaping on a whim if there are fewer B&Ms on the high street. If the B&M was a "hobby" type store, catering for the high end and so cloudy you can't see the counter from the door, I'd bet my last fiver that he wouldn't have gone in, and would still be smoking a pack of cigars a day. Luckily, it was more of a "come in and get something to help give up smoking" type place.

I guess what I'm trying to say is both groups need vaping as much as vaping needs them and TPD has the potential to drive a huge wedge between the industry and the punters.

And this post has become a small essay. Sorry about that apes. I don't expect any replies to this. Sometimes it's just good to write down thoughts (no matter how incoherently).

I honestly can't see juice being sold in 0 nic with a bottle of nic solution bundled together with it, there will always be people stupid enough to try and vape the nic solution neat but we shall see, only time will tell.

You are also spot on, the revised TPD wants to drive a wedge between consumers. The EU and our governments dont want you coming off the cancer sticks.

Think about it... How much tax is on a pack of fags vs a bottle of ejuice? How much are they losing on this? For the countless lives vaping saves, how many more years of state pension is that costing the government? Never mind the other state provided services used which generally increase during old age, NHS etc... There is a problem with overpopulation, why would they back a product which will increase that problem as people live longer?

You have to be deluded to think that Brussels and our puppet governments are doing this for our benefit. They can dress it up as much as they like, the fact is vaping as a whole has virtually driven a self regulated market.

 

[stewbacca]

This is about to get ranty (again, please feel free to just scroll past this wall of text and get back to the good stuff). I feel that I should state that I work for the NHS as a senior pharmacy technician in a mental health trust. In the past I have worked in general hospital, including those that (among other things) specialise in cancer and respiratory conditions. Most costs below are approximate, but should be somewhere in the ball park, I don't have exact numbers to hand.

The thing that bugs me with the people living longer argument is that, and this is speaking from professional experience, cancer drugs are really expensive, someone on a course of chemotherapy could be on four different drugs, each potentially costing up to £1000 each. Over six cycles of chemo adds up to a lot. That's before you add on the specialist nursing care, someone like me to prepare the chemo drugs, the cost of all the other medication, just to make the side effects of the chemo bearable, the diagnostic tests and scans, palliative (end of life) care, even wigs (which you can get on the NHS) and that's before you get to the stuff the NHS doesn't pay for, McMillan nurses, .

If you compare that to other "old people problems" e.g. heart disease, asthma (COPD to a certain extent some of the specialist inhalers are still very expensive ~£80 a month, but I'll get to that in a moment), arthritis, blood pressure and even dementia (again this is borderline cost wise depending on the severity of the patient and level of care needed), these are easily diagnosed - x-rays, blood tests, physical exam or just speaking to the patient, and the drugs to treat these are cheap. We're talking pence per month per drug. As an example, my grandma had a fall a few years ago, broke her hip, was replaced under local aesthetic, one night in hospital, out and done. The drugs that she takes to treat the reasons why she fell over and broke her hip, probably cost less than £1.50 a month.

I'd be interested if someone who has done the maths, to see if we didn't have to treat the smoking related illnesses i.e. if no-one in the UK smoked, ( by which I mean mainly cancer and COPD how much we'd save compared to if these patients lived to a ripe old age and just suffered "normal old people health problems"? If hypothetically, everyone that smoked quit, started vaping (and still putting money into the economy) how much of a dent that would put in the tax revenue vs the money saved by the NHS?

Unfortunately the drug companies don't make their profits from selling aspirin (less than 1p per month), furosemide (pence per month) and calcium tablets (maybe 50p, possibly a bit more a month). It's from new cancer (and other "sexy" conditions) drugs that they still hold the exclusive marketing rights for.

So it looks like it's a triple threat match between HMRC, big tobacco and big pharma, and sadly it's us, who are trying to do the right, thing are stuck slap bang in the middle because the three bodies above don't want to loose out on their slice of the pie.

 

[Mr Numpty]

Couldn't give a damn about the TPD any more. It's no more than a test of our ingenuity.

 

[ZT]

Couldn't give a damn about the TPD any more. It's no more than a test of our ingenuity.
View attachment 77932

Its a test of enthusiasts ingenuity

Its a massive cause for concern with new vapers, and existing smokers who may want to quit via vaping


and also for casual vapers

 

[Mr Numpty]

Its a test of enthusiasts ingenuity

Its a massive cause for concern with new vapers, and existing smokers who may want to quit via vaping


and also for casual vapers

My remarks were somewhat flippant of course but it is a test of those people's ingenuity also. I think new vapers and existing smokers will be better than we feared as they should have access to decent 2ml tanks and mods.
Businesses will have to show ingenuity also but they have my greatest sympathy and the need for the most ingenuity.

 

[oldhippydude]

I honestly can't see juice being sold in 0 nic with a bottle of nic solution bundled together with it, there will always be people stupid enough to try and vape the nic solution neat but we shall see, only time will tell.

People vaping 20mg nic is not a problem, many people are vaping 24mg or stronger now.

 

[bijou]

People vaping 20mg nic is not a problem, many people are vaping 24mg or stronger now.

I agree. I started on 24mg