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What's going on with the ELiquid Market?

another thing is these fly by nighters out to make a quick buck so they can sit on their arses for years see what prices the better made juices go for and charge the same or slightly less. shaving off the cost to mix ie using less flavour than is actually needed means they can charge less but as said it's all shit with no taste.
maybe some of these new comers are buying out of date flavours to make even more profit.

I diy so it is all insignificant to me but even as a Diyer i buy flavours and oneshots that sounds good or people have raved about and i can't stand them. I gave away some Fried ice cream last week because i didn't like it to another ape who uses Chefs Mexican fried ice cream as their ADV. which brings me onto another point the fried ice cream said mix at 15% that was wrong it needed 20% in 75%vg which must be why theses fly by nighters juices are shit they are using a % based on 50/50 vg/pg when obviously more is needed for higher vg mixes.

You have 2 choices, either stick with a brand you know to be quality juice makers which will limit the amount of juices you vape or import 72mg nic and go DIY unless you got 72mg pre tpd and bunged it in a freezer.

Remember TPD is a tool used by Big T, Big P and Governments to slowly kill off vaping or at least discourage it and this thread is one story of TPD's rules causing people to think about going back on the fags instead of vaping cheap shite.
 
Im no really sure if they(the TPD) can do much about shortfills....if they go after them and limit the size to 10ml, well that's them fked.
However you could simply still supply the concentrate(one shot or whatever) and an empty 60ml bottle, pg/vg/nic shots also supplied separate or sourced from elsewhere.
This only leaves concentrates are they going to demand that a fortune is spent testing the living daylights out of them and who from...
 
Im no really sure if they(the TPD) can do much about shortfills....if they go after them and limit the size to 10ml, well that's them fked.
However you could simply still supply the concentrate(one shot or whatever) and an empty 60ml bottle, pg/vg/nic shots also supplied separate or sourced from elsewhere.
This only leaves concentrates are they going to demand that a fortune is spent testing the living daylights out of them and who from...
My view on this is that as of now and due to them not acting quickly enough once the regulations came into force that MHRA/Trading Standards can probably do very little to get rid of shortfill. It's been entirely CREATED as too large a part of the vaping landscape now due to their blundering and inaction right at the point where the industry was looking for guidance.

All that will happen IMHO is that they will go back down the intent to avoid TPD testing route (as was written in the TPD law) when a product was intended or created to be used with nicotine. This will mean anything using the term eliquid will automatically be included as well as (I imagine) they will roll in similar wording to remove the likes of bottle shots/one shots/nic shots. The canny shortfill producer will just call it something else entirely and hope they are as useless at enforcing as before.

On one hand it may make a dent in the sheer number of new shortfill brands coming out as in theory it will make finding shortfill a little harder if you were looking for eliquid as an example. On the other it may just start the cycle of calling it something and using a workaround all over again - what they ought to do is quite simply remove the bottle size restriction and allow TPD registered products to be sold again in big bottles with whatever nicotine strength up to 20mg/ml

If they did that it takes away a positive to the shortfill 'thing' as well as a negative - you get your big bottles back and make the savings on juice as you would like. You also remove not only the risk but hassle of adding your own nic which once again puts professionally made, TPD compliant eliquid back as the product with more benefits rather than fewer.

Rumour has it that they are talking about needing shortfill to be testing in a way that proves safety, quite how they will accomplish this I don't know but again, the simplest, fastest and least hassle way around it is just to remove the bottle size restriction - job done. Shortfill that want's to remain on the market can be tested and notified and from a customer perspective you have the reassurance that what you are vaping is made within the regulations and is actually safe too.
 
My view on this is that as of now and due to them not acting quickly enough once the regulations came into force that MHRA/Trading Standards can probably do very little to get rid of shortfill. It's been entirely CREATED as too large a part of the vaping landscape now due to their blundering and inaction right at the point where the industry was looking for guidance.

All that will happen IMHO is that they will go back down the intent to avoid TPD testing route (as was written in the TPD law) when a product was intended or created to be used with nicotine. This will mean anything using the term eliquid will automatically be included as well as (I imagine) they will roll in similar wording to remove the likes of bottle shots/one shots/nic shots. The canny shortfill producer will just call it something else entirely and hope they are as useless at enforcing as before.

On one hand it may make a dent in the sheer number of new shortfill brands coming out as in theory it will make finding shortfill a little harder if you were looking for eliquid as an example. On the other it may just start the cycle of calling it something and using a workaround all over again - what they ought to do is quite simply remove the bottle size restriction and allow TPD registered products to be sold again in big bottles with whatever nicotine strength up to 20mg/ml

If they did that it takes away a positive to the shortfill 'thing' as well as a negative - you get your big bottles back and make the savings on juice as you would like. You also remove not only the risk but hassle of adding your own nic which once again puts professionally made, TPD compliant eliquid back as the product with more benefits rather than fewer.

Rumour has it that they are talking about needing shortfill to be testing in a way that proves safety, quite how they will accomplish this I don't know but again, the simplest, fastest and least hassle way around it is just to remove the bottle size restriction - job done. Shortfill that want's to remain on the market can be tested and notified and from a customer perspective you have the reassurance that what you are vaping is made within the regulations and is actually safe too.

Its a mess fella, valid points as always.....re the work around naming, well that requires no imagination "Concentrates" nae point re inventing the wheel.:)
 
Its a mess fella, valid points as always.....re the work around naming, well that requires no imagination "Concentrates" nae point re inventing the wheel.:)
Exactly, unless they ban concentrates which is too ludicrous to even think about, they can't win by outlawing shortfill as it stands. as theres far too many names that can be used in place.
 
The other sad thing that seems to have happened, from what I have seen, is that some of the makers of decent eliquids, who seemed to be there for the love of it as were genuinely passionate, have struggled post TPD, even if they decided to not go through the costs of testing. Having to change ranges/websites/ordering in order to move over to concentrates or shortfills/whatever seems to have thrown quite a few into confusion and that can't be good. Confusing websites, dodgy ordering procedures and flavours that keep changing or disappear for a while. Not that I'm blaming them at all - when they started out they did the most important thing very well, I think they're just now pushed far beyond where they expected to be. :(

There's a few for whom I have my fingers crossed. :51:
 
Not through choice, the issue is that while most end consumers are seeing - as @MrTeaTime says 'relentless' releasing of new juice lines - we are seeing the impact it is having on the businesses trying to put out 'proper' premium quality stuff and it's an uphill struggle.

It's partly because there's just so much of the new stuff coming through, allowed due to the really impressively poorly implemented regulations and the MHRA changing their minds on what is OK and not more times than they breathe air and the non-existent enforcement at an early stage by Trading Standards. What happened is just that the old Facebook homebrewers got wind that it was not only business as usual but pretty much given the all clear by MHRA to continue as planned.

The other reason, and this will be contentious with those of you who already have the opinion that good quality eliquid is 'overpriced' is that the current market price these shortfills are coming out at is designed to undercut each other on every new release in order to get into as many shops and homes as they can before the others beat them to it. The trouble is that it's not a sustainable price point if you meet the criteria of putting good quality ingredients, research and development, genuine business overheads, quality control and customer service/support.

The knock on effect is that consumers start to see juice prices collapse - great for the buyer, not so great for the long term plan of staying in the vaping business as the good old dirty 'profit' is what keeps businesses afloat. If the margins on juice become too small then you will see the types of quality manufacturers you want to see stick around will just wind up and give it up as a bad job.

Another issue that many of us have is that the costs of going through TPD compliance as has been stated elsewhere quite succinctly - ruinous... Most of us that paid what some may spend on owning a house to go through the right side of the TPD had an expectation that while some may exploit loopholes they would not be left so wide open as to literally create their own grey market and as a result things would eventually stabilise enough for us to then invest further in new flavours that have since fallen by the wayside as we release shortfill versions instead.

None of us (I mean this in all honestly not a single eliquid producer I have ever spoken to) like the 10ml bottle size rule and it's pretty much the one rule that is crippling the industry. Vapers like big bottles, they don't mind adding their own nicotine in order to get around this loophole and as such shortfill became a huge open workaround. If the lawmakers had understood this then TPD compliant manufacturers would never have been put at an actual disadvantage to non compliant shortfill but this is the reality of what the business has become.

Shortfill is the most appealing option for many people because they find 10ml bottles a pain in the arse, wasteful and having a 60ml+ bottle is a far better option than many little bastards.



Absolutely, in order for this development process to continue there has to be the business coming in to not only make back the costs but a little on top, it's all about that dirty profit again. Instead as we probably have the most to lose, having put tens of hundreds of thousands on the line previously for testing - we just release them as shortfill. In our case we have shortfill big bottle options of our best selling ranges to try and give high volume users a fighting chance of having their ADV juices in decent, useful sized bottles. For the rest, they are made exactly the same way, with the same ingredients, QC, and after care as every other one of our products. We still thoroughly test shortfill recipes over long terms before they are released so no loss in research and development either.

There is a growing trend at the minute that the current price of everything is considered too expensive, people naturally seek out bargains and I think that in terms of the cost of vaping vs smoking the price comparison may have been somewhat lost too. Yes there were people buying baccy or duty free cigs that were vastly cheaper than over the counter but that's an invalid comparison as eliquid isn't made duty free or on the snide (in the case of decent manufacturers)

At nearly £10 per day for a pack of 20 I would have been spending £40 a week on my smokes, I have a tank that with one coil type I can go through 8ml a day so that's around the same cost as smoking for me (not including the health and lifestyle benefits).

However...

The very same tank with a different coil means that I not only half the power needed to drive the coil but use 3ml of juice per day - half the cost of smoking and other than going from obnoxious clouds to most I get semi obnoxious clouds - ideal for me as I vape to not smoke and therefore my Procore SE with a 0.25ohm coil at 35w delivers tons of flavour, enough vapour without wasting juice just for show and I take exactly the same amount of nicotine per day. As a comparison the same fitting baby beast or vaporesso quad coils will go through 8ml a day and need at least twice the power to deliver the same hit.

The human body regulates what it needs automatically, using more juice won't mean you are getting more nicotine as your body would tell you to stop before it got too much.

My point is that there is always a more affordable way to vape, if you are in the group of people that used to smoke 10-20 a day but were sold a 150w+ mod and 3mg of juice to switch with then you were mis-sold a product that quite honestly has set you up to consume more for the benefit of the shop and not to work for you. I use 6mg all day every day, dropping to 3mg for me more than doubled my juice consumption and as I am not a big fan of throat hit I instead make all my juice lines as easy on the throat as they can be so my 6mg is not much more of a hit than 3mg in other ranges.
Spot on.
I remember speaking to dinner lady just before the summer hols range was released and to be honest the tpd regs with mhra testing ruined there launch. It was almost Autumn by time they where signed off for release. They literally where starting bottling shortfills when the ok came through. They said the last thing they wanted to do was to undermine all the advertising campaign but they where literally missing the window of opportunity due to the mhra dragging it's heels on juices that had already been far more thoroughly tested in house. So both shortfill and ten ml bottles arrived at the same time. So when they wanted to put out new flavours they went direct for shortfill first and hoped they weren't lumped in with the facebook cowboys.
It's causing so much agrivation as strangling quality juice makers as expected.
 
Excellent points made above by @PlumeBlu, @MrTeaTime et al.

Also noteworthy is that shortfill lines inherently incur far less costs to produce than larger format e-liquids did before TPD.

Don't forget that each liquid prior to TPD was available in multiple, pre-steeped nicotine strengths, each requiring careful quality testing and monitoring during the steeping process to ensure consistency (which is still the case for TPD compliant juices of course).

With shortfills, the barrier to entry has been lowered significantly without the need to invest time, effort and money in multiple batches of the same product, each with differing formulas depending on nicotine strength.

It seems that when you can bash out a new product cheaply in one big batch there is a lot less at stake if it's not up to scratch. The temptation is apparently there to just fling any old shit in a bottle and see if it sells with a tacky label on it.

Seeing this type of product absolutely flood the market is to be quite honest - heartbreaking.

There are so many excellent producers out there are seriously struggling to compete at the moment, run by people who actually care about their products and the industry as a whole, but finding them amongst all the shite is especially difficult, hence the recent increase we're seeing of people being disappointed with liquids etc.

Those are my thoughts, at least.
 
My view on this is that as of now and due to them not acting quickly enough once the regulations came into force that MHRA/Trading Standards can probably do very little to get rid of shortfill. It's been entirely CREATED as too large a part of the vaping landscape now due to their blundering and inaction right at the point where the industry was looking for guidance.

All that will happen IMHO is that they will go back down the intent to avoid TPD testing route (as was written in the TPD law) when a product was intended or created to be used with nicotine. This will mean anything using the term eliquid will automatically be included as well as (I imagine) they will roll in similar wording to remove the likes of bottle shots/one shots/nic shots. The canny shortfill producer will just call it something else entirely and hope they are as useless at enforcing as before.

On one hand it may make a dent in the sheer number of new shortfill brands coming out as in theory it will make finding shortfill a little harder if you were looking for eliquid as an example. On the other it may just start the cycle of calling it something and using a workaround all over again - what they ought to do is quite simply remove the bottle size restriction and allow TPD registered products to be sold again in big bottles with whatever nicotine strength up to 20mg/ml

If they did that it takes away a positive to the shortfill 'thing' as well as a negative - you get your big bottles back and make the savings on juice as you would like. You also remove not only the risk but hassle of adding your own nic which once again puts professionally made, TPD compliant eliquid back as the product with more benefits rather than fewer.

Rumour has it that they are talking about needing shortfill to be testing in a way that proves safety, quite how they will accomplish this I don't know but again, the simplest, fastest and least hassle way around it is just to remove the bottle size restriction - job done. Shortfill that want's to remain on the market can be tested and notified and from a customer perspective you have the reassurance that what you are vaping is made within the regulations and is actually safe too.

The bottle size restriction is simply ridiculous.

I am pretty good with recycling stuff as are Nottingham City Council. In my area most plastics are recycled and collected and the card/paper is pretty much universal. The tops of bottles are a bit of a grey area. Some are ok but some are one of the few types that isn’t accepted for household collection.

So consider the situation if I buy 100ml in 10ml bottles. That is 10 caps that are potentially not recyclable. That still discounts the fact that I am still dumping a hell of a lot of plastics and card in the recycling bin. All this at a time when we are struggling with getting things recycled due to the China ban and that we are supposed to be attempting to reduce plastic waste.

It simply makes no sense. All the other parts of the TPD make at least some kind of sense, as much as they may cause expense and disruption for manufacturers, but I really struggle to see the point of the 10ml bottle size.
 
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