MHRA regulation of electronic cigarettes announced

[KulrMeStoopid]

http://youtu.be/VLmBJ4_5eG4

 

[Numpty]

I didnt single you out and my statement goes for everyone who replies on this thread. Please dont single yourself out or assume I was speaking directly to you, if that were the case, I would have PMed you

Much appreciated but it's only my ass I need to cover

It may be lost somewhat but my intentions here are a serious attempt to be constructive and provoke some potentially useful discussion that may lead to some kind of unification.
Until we decide what might be good enough as users and vendors how will we know what to fight for ?
Let's go poke the bear with a stick some more and see.

 

[Mawsley]

We'd need a lot of threads to cover my arse.

 

[Numpty]

We'd need a lot of threads to cover my arse.

You have a beautiful ass as your upload to Porntube proves......
Ahhh I remember the good old mk1 Speedo's

 

[Mawsley]

I go nude these days.

Always clears a space on the beach.

 

[AndyC1971]

You really are missing the point I think, I don't think informing everyone traffic is dangerous and the suggestion of oxygen enriched isolation is particularly helpful, what would help is if you could avoid pointless and asinine comments and grasp one very simple fact...

How do you know 100% the liquid you vape has only the 4 ingredients you want in it ? - Because I choose to believe the select few juice suppliers/manufacturers that I use
Who is checking on your behalf ?
At which point did I suggests vaping wasn't many times safer than tobacco ? - Then being on a level playing field, 'game over' vaping wins



Yes we have all probably eaten some horse but yet again your knee jerk response has missed a few key points.
We only know about the horse meat because there was a system in place and checks were made, now take it nice and slow and think it through. - How long did we eat horse meat for??
Without those regulations and checks in place we would have eaten a lot more horse and for an indefinite period of time, we know because people with the skills knowledge and equipment to test on our behalf have discovered it, without that system we would each need our own lab for DNA analysis. - Such good regulation, they are in the process of tightening it up.
These checks caused all this fuss yet horse has not killed anyone, it is a food, many people choose to eat it, the fuss is because people have the right to actually get what the ask and pay for, if I want, order and pay for beef that is what I should get, nothing more and nothing less and the fuss is more about money and the fact someone got very rich selling horse at beef prices, no one was in danger apart from the fact a lot of the horse meat was found to contain high levels of Ketamine, thank goodness someone was checking, oh hold up no , i'll go hide in a dark room !!!! - How many people have died from Vaping?? Before you say it could be long term effects, the same goes for Horse meat, and the associated chemicals. I think you are talking about Bute and not Ketamine.



Yes Cigarettes are regulated to the same or maybe even higher levels, every packet contains tar, nicotine and carbon monoxide levels on the pack and all tobacco product producers are licensed do you really think no one is checking ? - Is every cigarette tested?? If not, what is the point of testing. No different to getting your car MOTd, just means at that time its safe, once you have left the garage, this could change
This may be why a Marlboro Red tastes different to a Silk Cut, we have a choice and if you want low tar low Nic you can have it much like we want from our juice, lets just be sure and have someone keep an eye and be ready to enforce the rules if someone gets sloppy... - See above



Silly question but just for you, peer pressure and so I could be as cools as my mates, and like most teenagers and maybe a few people here I couldn't see the big picture.
I really don't know if you see what I'm saying as a crusade or you're not completely familiar as to what a crusade is but let me help some more..
I am not demanding regulation, regulations are already being set in motion for vaping products whether we agree or not, I think the level of regulation is madness and imposing medicine levels of control is basically a ban and the death of choice as the cost of producing equipment to that standard would cost in the region of a million pounds and take 18 months to 2 years to complete, go check this link provided by @whipitup I think it will surprise you.
http://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/the-mhra-kills-golden-goose.html
My point is regulation is coming, like it or not so lets try and consider food regs for this consumable as it will allow vaping to live and breath as we want it but could actually provide some benefits such as quality control and mean when you ask for 18mg VG that's what you get, you will for the first time ever know you have only the 4 ingredients you want and the levels of each have been verified, is that really so offensive? - Regulation is already in place,



Interesting, I find it hard to fathom why it is that nice labels, nice website, speedy and helpful correspondence and passion for business leads you to totally believe these people are strictly following some guidelines you don't know in full and are still being formulated, and I guess because you assume you could visit and you assume you are qualified to test the juices awaiting dispatch and the fact the room was painted really nice and the floor was swept all was good ? - Agreed, but lets be honest, if all the guidelines are being followed, then I am happy that they are more likely to be following the correct procedures. Do you really think regulation will change that, the day before the visit, they can clean up, sweep the floor as you put it, and change their processes!!



I would ask you to slow down, check you have not over nic'd and read my post again please, I want every one to have the nicotine exactly the way they want as long as it is within the safe limits we understand, I DO NOT WANT ANYONE'S RIGHTS TO VAPE TOUCHED IN ANY WAY, there I think you hear me now.., - Thank you, I understand now, but remember if I wish to and am happy to purchase off of a vendor, I am entitled to do so, I dont need regulation or a nanny state to tell me I cant.
I want a system that give some level of guarantee people can vape exactly what they want, if they order 30 ml, 18 mg VG with no nasties, water based flavours the very 4 ingredients you spoke of earlier is what you get and someone with the right equipment and qualifications has taken a quick look. - This regulation you are proposing cannot guarantee this 100% of the time, just from the batch that was tested, what about the next x amount of batches.



If it wasn't for the regular and strict checks imposed on public houses you can be pretty sure a fair amount of under the counter spirits would be cut into what's up on the rack,
Then you completed my whole arguement for me , I thank you ...." but we have the relevant regulation for beer and other alcohol, right - Are you really aware of the amount of counterfeight alcohol on sale in the UK, either through off licences or Pubs???
So lets have similar for vaping, for the same reasons and get similar confidence that things are reasonably close to what's described... - See above

Regulation is coming let's at least try to have one that is already in use, makes sense for the product, is cost effective for the Vendor and actually has some safety elements for the consumer, I can't understand why that is so provocative and get's me spoken to like I'm a Nazi - If you feel I have spoken to like you are a nazi, then I apologise, because you are entitled to your opinion, just like I am entitled to mine.

CBA to split the quote down

 

[jeffhds]

As a vaper of 2 years+ I have a vested interest in how this will pan out, and like most was quite insulted and angry at yesterdays recomendations. Having now calmed down as after all I really don't think it's gonna happen ect...........
However taking a step back looking at the bigger picture there is somthing that concerns me far more than than what steps I may or may not have to take if i want to continue vaping.

The MHRA is an executive agency of the Department of Health, and are responsible for regulating all medicines and medical devices in the UK by ensuring they work and are acceptably safe. What i find worring is the quality of work they have produced, they are a "professional" gov. dept. that were given 3 years to produce the rubbish they came out with yesterday. It matters little right or wrong, but the level of work presented was not even student standard. I would love a professer to cast their eye over it and grade it !
The WHO also gave a report to the MEP's and again the level of work was shocking and this is from THE WORLD HEALTH ORG !
My conserns are these are the people the govt. listen to on matters realting to issuse relating to out health, the pills your doctor gives you, ect ect ect.

If this level of work is aceptable from people in these jobs then frankly, it matters not what happens regarding vaping is, we are all fucked anyway.

 

[Numpty]

CBA to split the quote down

Because I choose to believe
Ok, you choose to have faith and trust etc etc...
I think many would prefer some tangible evidence or attempt at quantifying juice contents materials used in atomisers, I think blind faith tends to get the ass bitten more often..

'game over' vaping wins
Something we agree on, yes, as it stands right now e-cigs win hand down, never been contested by anyone I believe to have an IQ over 9.

How long did we eat horse...
Horse meat, in this context I'm more interested in how long we would have continued to have eaten horse meat and by how much that % would have increased over time without the checks being made and because I don't think anyone will ever know how long.
The situation was brought to light by a flawed and inefficient system but I'll have that over none at all...

not Ketamine.
Ok Bute, if you say so, I don't care the name of it but I do care that a chemical deemed unsuitable for human consumption was in the food chain....
I'd like to think that if something similar happened in the Nicotine or flavouring it could be spotted at some point by a man in a white coat and not due to an increase in health problem or blind luck.

Regulation is already in place
Regulations are in place but it seemed to be largely self regulated and to some degree voluntary or based on good faith and morals, as it stands a producer or vendor that is being careless or unwittingly getting it wrong will only be properly checked after some kind of problem comes to light..
I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest this is not the best way forward.
Checks would also protect and inform the juice mixers buy checking their supply chain...

"Do you really think regulation will change that"
Not directly and it would depend on the structure of the regulations and who and how it is monitored but let's for now say no..
What it would do is reduce the timeline between production and discovery of a contaminated product, I would suggest mandatory batch testing it would go some way to spot problems early and keep producers informed, don't forget the mixers and vendors can fall foul of substandard ingredients, it helps cover their ass as well.

Is every cigarette tested??
Of course not, maybe a quick Google of batch testing will explain better than I'm able.
The point is to find a level of cover for all the vaping community that is not too restrictive, cost effective but is worth putting in place.
I do not know what that is, the vendors don't know and neither do the MHRA which maybe why they propose the total control option of medicine law....

I dont need regulation or a nanny state
I do believe at some time in our life we need the protection of those smarter and better informed than ourselves, your method of juice testing for products yet to be found unsuitable, toxic, mistakenly included at source or included buy a rogue vendor or counterfeit is to march forward blindly until your body shouts for help. Not most peoples preferred option but most certainly your right, when some regulation is in place you will be free to buy all your supplies on the black market and continue as you are but please don't contest what I think the majority would prefer, providing it is done within reasonable boundaries and cost.

cannot guarantee this 100%
You are right again, no testing system that I can think of has produced 100% results, absolutely right but I do know a system is not checked and monitored in some predefined way will fail substantially more and increase the risks.
No self regulating system ever produced worthwhile or consistent trustworthy results and most often spirals downwards, something similar to the US banking/mortgage system.

Are you really aware of the amount of counterfeight alcohol on sale in the UK, either through off licences or Pubs???
No I'm not but I'm pretty sure it's more than is completely safe and less than if there were no one watching and checking, those doing it risk getting caught, if this was a system based on morals, good faith and a belief system I'd say it would be at the very least double the risk, I'm being very conservative with that estimate.

I have spoken to like you are a nazi
I don't think I have been spoken to like a Nazi I just get the impression a few may think I'm someone who wants a controlled world and everything bubble wrapped for safety or someone in uniform on every corner keeping us safe !!
I just think it is an intelligent option to try and work out what could benefit vaping from both vendor and consumer view points and keep the dogs at bay, they want totally restriction, control of this terrible poison we ingest, why not spend the next few months preparing a viable option that covers their concerns as much as possible whilst finding out what vapors and vendors think will work ?

 

[Senor Stuff]

I was having a chat with a mate about this earlier and she came at it from a non vaping ex smoker side. The thing that really struck me was that a lot of academics, a whole lot of academics, rate nicotine as one if if not the most addictive drug. That's backed up by all of us, and millions of others, risking our lives to get it, albeit in a previous life for us vapers.
With that in hand there is no way it will be let off regulation free, we all know that really, the point is the level of regulation. I'm all for regulation but labelling it "medicine" is a step too far and why with all these petitions being bandied about its important that there is a central message. I can't sign a petition asking the government to leave it well alone as that will be laughed out under the weight of medical evidence on the addictiveness of nicotine. But I will sign ones asking for lesser regulation so as not to strangle a market that has real life benefits for the nicotine addicted

 

[Purplefowler]

I've obviously been thinking about this whole thing a lot (haven't we all?) and a couple of things have popped into my usually empty mind. I trust the vendors we have here. We have a sort of screening process before we will allow them to join up (little things such as the correct health warnings and age restrictions for example). Most vendors are more than happy to adhere to our rules as they see it as a positive step. Every now and again we get a new vendor who doesn't want to listen (obviously they don't become a part of the potv family). Now these vendors usually disappear pretty quickly but where do they go and who are they selling too?
This then lead me onto my next train of thought- us forum vapers are a fairly well educated lot who are aware of the "dangers", most of us signed up because we wanted to learn more and educate ourselves. We talk amongst ourselves and if there is something dodgy being sold then it soon gets round. But then I started to think about the numbers. According to the statistics there are 1.3 million vapers but the combined users of all the uk forums can't be more than 50000 (and that I think is optimistic when you think how many folks are members of several forums). So where are the remaining 1.2+million vapers getting their juice, equipment and information from?
I am rambling a little but I guess the point I'm finally trying to get to is that there should be some sort of unified regulation (above the regulations that are currently in place). There does need to be an industry standard and a code of practice that is affordable and accessible to all suppliers. It should also be enforcable to ensure the high standards that us forum vapers have come to expect and respect. I do not believe it should be down to any medical body as we all know they cannot be trusted, the almighty dollar (or pound in our case) is proven to be more important than any of our health. At this point I feel encouraged by the fighting stance the big companies are coming out with (decadent vapours, cloud 9 and ecig wizard are amongst the ones I see). I hope that everyone can come together and somehow show the powers that be that we are a responsible group of adults. Unity is the most powerful weapon we have and hopefully we can rely on it to pull some weight. This is the one time that I would like to see ALL the companies, forums and individual vapers come together as one force, I'd almost be prepared to dance with the devil in the pale moonlight if I thought it would help our cause. I'll stop rambling now, I hope some of that made some sense